Entrepreneurial Appetite

Contested Valor: A History of Black Marines with Dr. Cameron McCoy

• Cameron McCoy • Season 5 • Episode 48

Share episode

Dr. Cameron McCoy steps into our space with a narrative that bridges the divide between the past and present, honoring the resilience and valor of African American Marines. His book, "Contested Valor: African American Marines in the Age of Power, Protest, and Tokenism," serves as a backdrop to a profound conversation about identity, mentorship, and the transformative power of education, coinciding with Black History Month. We're not just talking about history; we're living it, as Cameron takes us from his D.C. roots to his compelling evolution as a soldier and a scholar, emphasizing the work ethic and perseverance passed down from our families.

Our dialogue traverses the journey of the Black Marines, whose service in eras from WWII to Vietnam defied the insidious narratives of social Darwinism and white supremacy. It's a tale of integration and identity, where the military serves as the crucible for change, offering access to education and shaping the lives of young Black men and women. Cameron's story is a testament to this legacy, as he recounts his own experiences—from track and field to becoming a Marine—revealing how these institutions mold personal and collective identities. The thread of mentorship weaves through our discussion as we acknowledge those who have guided us and underscore the importance of supporting the next generation.


Support the show

https://www.patreon.com/c/EA_BookClub

Langston Clark:

What's up everybody, welcome to another episode of Entrepreneurial Appetite, a podcast based upon a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting black businesses. And today we have a very special podcast recording that features my academic brother, Cameron McCoy, who is the author of Contested Valor African American Marines in the Age of Power, protest and Tokenism. This recording is special because it marks one of the unique opportunities that I had to host a live podcast recording in my home with a group of Army, navy, Marine Corps and Air Force veterans and active duty members. So listen and enjoy, and happy Black History Month. Hey everyone, thank you again for your support of Entrepreneurial Appetite. Beginning this season, we are inviting our listeners to support the show through our Patreon website. The founding 55 patrons will get live access to our monthly discussions for only $5 a month. Your support will help us hire an intern or freelancer to help with the production of the show. Of course, you can also support us by giving us five stars, leaving a positive comment or sharing the show with a few friends. Thank you for your continued support.

Langston Clark:

First, I want to thank all the guests who are here with us live today. I want to give a special shout out to Uchanai Ogba, the founder of I'm going to say this right ECHU Marketing Agency. I also want to give a shout out to Ler oy Adams, founder of Cultural Travels, a Black Travel brand. Both of these brothers and their brands have supported me here today, so I want to give big props to them. I also want to thank you all for your service and also want to recognize that today you're going to get some information about how you all, as Black folks in the military, are part of an enduring legacy of people in our community, of our heritage contributing to our countries and ways that I think many of us are unaware. We see how the military was integrated on paper before the rest of mainstream society, but nevertheless there were some struggles that people in our community had getting full recognition. So, as we transition now into the conversation, I want to give a shout out to my academic brother, Cameron, for writing this phenomenal book Contested Valor, African American Marines and the Age of Power, protest and Tokenism. It's just a little history. So, I have a unique family Many of you have heard of that book called Rich Dad, poor Dad right, and my biological dad, who was a fantastic father.

Langston Clark:

Like I couldn't have asked for a better dad. I think it was good enough to also have two academic fathers, and one is Dr. Samuel at The Ohio State and the other one is Dr. Louis Harrison, who's here with us today. And Dr. Harrison was part of a trio of Black men who all came from LSU to the University of Texas at Austin between I think it was 2007 and maybe 2009 when Dr Moore got there. So Dr Leonard Moore, Dr. Louis Harrison and Dr. Gregory Vincent were all very intentional about creating a space for Black men and many Black men who were former student athletes to be able to get their PhDs, get it funded, be supported and develop themselves in ways that most other people don't get an opportunity to develop. And so, had not been for them, I wouldn't have Cameron here, who is my academic brother Now.

Langston Clark:

There's one time in Cameron you don't remember this we were up in LCAE, the Longhorn Center for Academic Excellence, and so part of our work was mentoring undergraduate students who were first gen and underrepresented at UT Austin, and Cameron came up to me. He was like Langston. You know you're like a little brother to me. You know I'm the youngest of five kids, so I give off little brother vibes, right, but I was thinking to myself. I was like in the academic family, I'm actually the older brother. I'm actually the older brother. Yes, he is.

Langston Clark:

You know what I'm saying. So like it's a pleasure to have my little brother here today.

Cameron McKoy :

And you know, that might just be that just might be my ego as the youngest of five kids, Let me ask you that, like so, Langston was critical to my success and I introduced to Dr. Harrison, who's here, and Dr. Harrison was actually on my dissertation committee and so Langston was the one who was guiding all of us. He legitimately was everyone's big brother because he was on the cusp of getting to where all of us were like, man, we can't wait to be done with this. And he was like I'm already done. So he is right about that. So he was someone I looked up to and inspired to be like, because I knew that he had done it.

Langston Clark:

Thank you, I appreciate that, yeah, and so I just invite you all and welcome you all. Thank you all for being here to hear from this phenomenal black man, this phenomenal scholar, who was also a soldier and a former student athlete. And so, before we get into the story that is contested valor, tell us your heroes, journey, your autobiography right, and how you maybe came to this work, but also I want to hear a little bit about who you are as a student athlete and how you got to be. Why you? Because I really don't know your story.

Cameron McKoy :

And a lot of that has to do with just, we were also busy yeah, graduate students, right. And so you know from I grew up. I was born and raised right in Washington DC, born in Southeast, grew up in Northwest Washington DC before it got gentrified, so I'm not part of the new school at Northwest Washington DC, but I mean, I came from a family that valued hard work. I had a father who was committed to work. He was a firefighter, my mother was executive secretary for social security, but they worked hard and so, and I understood the value of that Right, we didn't come from a lot, but I understood they were committed to, committed to each day of doing what they could for the family, right. And we're hard on parents and many of us who have children or will have children, like your kids, are probably hard on you as well, or you're learning the lessons you put on your parents as well as well. But they worked hard for that.

Cameron McKoy :

And my opportunities when I had them, I had to take full advantage of them because I didn't know when they were going to come around again, and one of those opportunities was to join the United States Marine Corps. And so when I did that right, all of a sudden saw a different world in which I didn't know people were from certain places. I've met a person from South Dakota. I'd never been to South Dakota, I've never had since. Yeah, but you're meeting all these people from Wisconsin and I remember one guy was with. He said I am brother from Wisconsin. I was like they're black people in Wisconsin and so you mean people from Minnesota and so many different places, and so the military really opened my mind up. This aperture just was able to expand in it. I ended up going to college and then 9-11 happens. I was going into my senior year when 9-11 started and I just felt this is what I need to do to get back. Also, it was an opportunity and for many young black men and women who joined it really is one of the quickest and smoothest paths and when I say smooth, it's relative, but it is one of the smoothest paths for us to get to higher education quickly. And there are a lot of things that are attached to that, like a retirement right. You don't have to worry so much about it because you know it's going to be there at the end of 20 years, and so these opportunities are things that really members of the black community latch on to, because it's something very difficult for people to take away from you or deny you, and you may not achieve the heights you want, but they can never touch that part of it, so that's critical.

Cameron McKoy :

So while I'm in school, I was a pretty good athlete and I had a couple of letters coming out of high school with some offers, but I really wanted to push the boundaries of okay, how good, can I really compete on a division one level, and I was able to do that. I didn't play a lot in football but track and field I was a decathlete and able to do a decent job at that finish, number one in the conference and in the long jump, and was really proud of just that accomplishment. I've always been pretty athletic and not a star athlete by any stretch of the imagination, right. But if we go out I mean we play football and everything I can smoke you. I can't say I'm right, I can't give you a taste of it, but in there are guys who can smoke me, right, and so that was something that I felt very good about.

Cameron McKoy :

And I was actually talking to Leroy about this, about look, you know, I don't hate on other people. I live by a code, I stay in my lane and the only validation I seek is my validation, and that's been my approach throughout this time. But being an athlete opens other doors. Right, you get treated very differently than the general population on a campus when you are involved in sports and activities like that. But it can also backfire, especially for black men, because people assume you're just at the campus because of them.

Langston Clark:

Yeah, In the book you reference, cross hysteria, racial identity development. I knew you liked that. Can you yeah? So that's like a thing that we have in our group of scholars and Lewis knows this Talk a little bit about your identity development and how you were shaped by going to be from DC to BYU and the military and athletics. How did your identity as a black man develop, change and shift and grow in your process of becoming? Now you're still in the military, but you are very much an accomplished scholar, having written this book.

Cameron McKoy :

Okay. So remember this 20 years ago. So I have to speak as if it was 20 years ago. I really didn't know what my identity was at that time. Here's what I didn't know. I knew it wasn't defined by athletics, but I wasn't sure it was defined by academics either. And so for me, really, I had always viewed myself through the lens of being a Marine, because it felt as if it connected every part of my being into that organization, and so I really have just identified myself kind of as a Marine, less as an academic.

Cameron McKoy :

But as I've gotten older and mature, right, these things start to all level at the same apex and you begin to realize what you are. All of these things is just shifting all the time. You're transitioning through them. You're toggling through each one of these, right and I won't use that word but you're toggling through them when they're necessary. I guess I'll say this when I've talked about death and understanding when it's coming. You know I get asked about it, so I want them to put an eagle of an anchor on there, right. And so for me, I believe the prominent or the identity that has the most degree to it is a Marine, and let me explain why very, very quickly. It's because without the Marine Corps, I don't have these opportunities, I can't write about this and I don't move through life with the sort of ease that I have now if I hadn't had that opportunity. Yeah, yeah.

Langston Clark:

And I think that comes to the first question as we transition into talking about the book how did you come to this work? What inspired you to do this work and motivate you to write these stories?

Cameron McKoy :

was started with Shane. I'm a second lieutenant. The war kicked off in Iraq and I'm going through training infantry officer course. I'm training to be a rifle infantry platoon commander and we're on the endurance course. I'm running with my buddy, bobby May, and he you know they have all those direction arrows wherever you are and place in one red Moffat point and he's like McCoy Moffat point. You know all about that Like in my head. I'm like what the hell is my point? And I felt silly with some this white guy, you know his white boy, saying you should know this right. And I said what's my point? And he's like well, it was the first black Marines.

Cameron McKoy :

And I thought to myself how in the world did I get to this level, get commissioned, and I know about this at all. I had known about Cam Johnson, which we can get into later, which is formally Moffat point, and I'll explain. Camp Johnson was named after Gilbert Hashmark Johnson. He's a Sergeant Major in the Marine Corps and he had the most hash marks because he has served in the Army as well, and they named the base after him, the very first one named after any African American.

Cameron McKoy :

And so I thought how in the world have I walked past this place, been on that place and never known this history, and so really I use the word shame. I think it's a strong word and I think I use it because it just kind of keeps me humbled and in check, rather than trying to excuse myself and saying it was just being naive. But it started out as shame and it lit a fire in me and I asked me. I was like well, can you teach me? The first thing I said to him was hey, can you teach me about this so I can be more informed that? His response was that's all I know.

Cameron McKoy :

Right, yes, so so exactly, exactly, so, yeah, exactly, call it. Yeah, that's all. Yeah, yeah, so he was like that's all I know. And in that moment I felt, okay, I have to pursue this. And, langston, to tell you the truth, I didn't even know where to start, but it burned at me for four straight years until I finally got to that point.

Langston Clark:

Early in the book. What's interesting is that this story, the story of these black Marines and you take us from Montfort Point all the way through Black Power move in 1960s era, and that these stories are silent but significant. And so embarrassed myself. Here in San Antonio there's a cigar lounge four or nine cigars right and so one of the owners there, his name is EB, and EB is a Marine. So I'm like EB, yo, my boy Cameron is coming. You should come through. He ain't coming today, he coming to lunch tomorrow though, all right. And so it was like oh, is it talking about Montfort Point?

Langston Clark:

I ain't. No, I thought it was talking about a person.

Langston Clark:

It's like today Negro name Montfort. That's not right you know, so no shame in you not knowing about it, even because it's not like it's something that they teach us in black history.

Langston Clark:

Yes, right, and I think, if not for the HBO show, the Tuskegee Airmen, that movie that came out straight on HBO, like we wouldn't know about them because I don't remember reading about them, right? And so the stories and the lineage, the military lineage and heritage of African Americans that you share here is a silent but significant, and you mentioned how much of the military history, insofar as it relates to the Marines, has been shaped by white folks, and so talk about what it meant for you, as a scholar, to be reshaping history, not only as a black scholar, but as someone who, as you said, like one of your core identities, is as a Marine.

Cameron McKoy :

Well, I felt like you and Dr. Harrison and many of you out here. But Ler oy right that you're the pioneer, that you cannot mess it up, you can't get it wrong. This may sound silly, but OJ Jackson is that Ice Cube son? Is that what?

Langston Clark:

you're saying Oshae Jackson, Jr, okay.

Cameron McKoy :

So while I was working, before I started getting deep into this, he was on an interview and it inspired me, believe it or not, and I love Ice Cube. He's not my favorite rapper but he's in the top three. Okay, but I know, you know he's not my favorite, but he's top three. And so they made a movie about NWA and Jackson. What was going to play his father, ice Cube?

Cameron McKoy :

And as he was auditioning, he had made the comment they told him they're like we just don't think you have the chops for this, we just don't think you're going to be able to fulfill the role of your father for the movie. And he said no, I have to. He's like it cannot be anyone else except for me. He said I cannot fail at this. I'm paraphrasing here, but the power in his voice where he was committed to no, no one else can do this except for me. I didn't feel it was no one else can do this except for me. But that was the responsibility that fell into my lap and I felt that I had to do it justice in a way that would make these men proud. I called them men of legend, that they could look on this and say all right, young fella, and you know we get to talk to all. Right, young fella, you did well, yeah, and thank you for sharing this story.

Langston Clark:

I think it's important to talk a little bit more about Montfort Point and you're right in the book that Montfort Point has been written about. But I want to hear you talk about Montfort Point and its significance, and after we talk about Marine segregation, we'll talk about the era of integration, or the eras of integration that happened.

Cameron McKoy :

I like how you said that errors Because they were all in different stages. Right that you look at this. Integration was an iterative process for the military because it had to adjust itself. But when you asked me about the significance of Montfort Point, I would say it's just as significant for any initial training or boot camp as it would be for anyone, regardless of race. But it was definitely set aside right when it was only a place where black men could be trained. They couldn't lead at first and they come into the Marine Corps in 1942 officially, but it takes a full year until they are able to actually train themselves. And for me that's how Montfort Point is so significant. It's ground zero. For the first time you actually see black men training other black men and that's significant in the eyes of whites and blacks the same yeah.

Langston Clark:

Before reading this book, I didn't know that the Marines are. I don't want to say this. In a lot of ways, the vanguard of the military and I know like people may be quips is like I'm army, you know where we are. I'm Navy. You can't be Santa. I know that, I know that I'm only white Look at I'm saying Listen, listen, listen.

Langston Clark:

But I read the book though. I read the book, my parents are Air Force, my best friend is in the Navy. But reading this book, there's some interesting things that I hadn't considered about. The Marines, right, and so you are our amphibious right Land, air, sea, it's all of those things wrapped in together and today more expeditionary, yes, and so there are some significance in this story being about the Marines in ways that.

Langston Clark:

I think that perhaps and this is not to limit the significance of the integration of the Navy or the integration of the army Talk about why this is special in the greater context of the armed forces.

Cameron McKoy :

Okay, the reason that this is so significant is because the Marine Corps was the last branch of service that integrated its ranks, but I need to jump forward to August 6th 2022. Okay, so on August 6th 2022, the Marine Corps promoted its first Black four-star general, michael Hinkley. 2022. 80 years, yeah, for the Marine Corps to see its first Black four-star general. Yeah, and so that's why this is so significant, because the branch is small. I cannot take that away from it, but it has struggled with trying to maintain institutional integrity that was based on white supremacy, and it really fought hard to do that, harder than any other branch of service, and so that's why that's so significant. And the young men who fought in World War II, the Korean War and Vietnam all believed and felt that if I can make it through the Marine Corps, then that's showing everyone that we are trumping science, right, the social darminism that existed. They said no, we're proving to you and showing you that it's just dubious.

Langston Clark:

Talk a little bit about that as it relates to integration, because there were all of these throughout the book. They were all like the pseudoscience and your record of it in the book is prevalent Ideas about being able to lead themselves, ideas about being able to lead others, and talk about how that indebted white supremacy sort of made it more difficult for the Marines to integrate through these different periods of integration.

Cameron McKoy :

So first there was no other model except for white officers leading black troops. So that's where we need to start right. And this was all legal right Even through the 40s, 50s and 60s. This was all legal because segregation was legal. And so the blueprint had been set that, okay, blacks can only perform under the leadership of white officers or white men under their thumb. Because that was just the only model that they knew. So they assumed all right, then, that's just the model we stick with.

Cameron McKoy :

But you see that transition right in Truman in July 1948, decides no, we have got to get rid of this, we have to fully integrate the armed forces. And really it always takes war and combat to see the bravery and courage of people to say no, they actually can perform well and think on their own. And so they were a direct front to science. And it also shifted that moniker of white officers rising to an occasion to lead blacks, which I thought was contradictory. Right, there's this paradox there where they hated if they were assigned to a black unit, but then somehow they rose to the occasion to lead black men in combat.

Langston Clark:

And so those are the models that you're dealing with, or at least that I found, and they're very prevalent throughout, and so one of the things that's interesting early in the book, like you take us all the way back to the war and you gave a statistic about who was more likely to desert, and the white men were more likely to desert than the black men were. So I think that's an important thing to note that throughout our history in fighting for this country and the military, that there have been instances where we have demonstrated more integrity as men and women in the armed forces than some others, despite the stereotypes that say that we have less.

Cameron McKoy :

Maddox, a little bit of context to that as well. Number one it's a numbers game, right, population is majority white. There's not a large black population. So those numbers, right, they do favor blacks in them. I just want to make sure I give some context. Second right, the military ends up serving as a de facto jobs program for many blacks, right, so their options are limited, and yes, even though those records state that.

Cameron McKoy :

I always like to give a little bit of context to that. But what you said is correct, it's bought on. But I think sometimes audience members forget, like they really like to grab one to that and say, see, that was it right. There it was like, let me add a little bit of context, so we have a full picture here. And so the options for many blacks is just limited at that time. So guess what they're willing to endure and able to endure, whereas whites they just have all these off ramps. And so it makes. But what it does add, langston, is their commitment is stronger to the military. Right, it becomes something that really is pivotal for them and they say, no, this it truly does become their identity because guess what it bridges who they are to first class citizenship, right and full rights, and so for them that is the key.

Langston Clark:

I think that's why the integration of the military is important. So we hear about Jackie Robinson, right, but we don't hear about Montfort Point and the significance of that in black men and women who have served in the armed forces and what that meant for us as the idealic citizen. Right, we participated in the highest form of citizenry in ways I think I know that often go unaccounted for.

Cameron McKoy :

Can I ask something to that? We're having a conversation about this earlier and it goes back to identities. You're asking me about athletics, marine Corps, then, as a scholar, being an academic, the reason that Jackie Robinson may have this is just me pontificating to an extent is because his entertainment value Right, whereas if you're just Langston and Cameron going into the Marine Corps, you don't have an entertainment value right. You are more of an anchor around someone's neck, a problem, and my question always is when did the black man stop being a problem in the military? I don't know the answer to that. And so there you are, a problem, whereas Jackie Robinson served a purpose of entertainment, and we see that much more prevalent in our society today.

Langston Clark:

You talked about me liking to see the cross-reference in the book. But I love comic books and I thought it was interesting where you talked about the war propaganda and how, in the advent of comic books, captain America and all of those things that went out to the white soldiers and represented them but didn't represent black folks, and you'd have this very interesting comparison between the white media, the comic books and what the black media was doing, like the black newspaper, was it the Pittsburgh Pittsburgh Courier I'll go defender and all the stories and the narratives that they were putting out and a part of how African-Americans, when they went to war, were fighting two wars, world War II. We're fighting against fascism, you know, in Europe but also in the United States. For us, and I think that was an interesting part of. To me it was the most interesting part of the book because I didn't expect it. So talk a little bit about the media's role in shaping the narrative and the image around black marines and black folks in the military.

Cameron McKoy :

That was probably the most fun I had in writing it To many academics, or at least some of the comments I got there like. That was a lot of fun. That was my favorite part and I think it struck a stronger chord than I had anticipated on writing. But the imagery that you see if I see a Captain America, let me make sure I say this right Black marines looked at Captain America the same way White marines did, like everyone looked at Captain America Steve Rogers as this figure of overcoming things.

Cameron McKoy :

So he transcended race. It came down to what he represented. So I wanna make sure that that's very clear that they did. They looked at him the same and for them, what I tried to highlight is the real signal of bravery is getting medals right A bronze star, a silver star, a Navy cross and we see that with Dory Miller, who's depicted in who Cuba Gooding plays in the movie Pearl Harbor. But we don't have a slate of black men being on the cover of things.

Cameron McKoy :

And for the propaganda piece the United States had to be very careful and the reason I say that is because it's not until the fall of 1942, and a lot of people do not know this that the last slave was freed in the United States, fdr had to publish a document called Circular 3591 that officially was addressing slavery ending in the United States in October of 1942. And I asked my students this we'll talk a little bit, sometimes get off topic, which I like a lot in classes, and I was like, okay, when was the last slave freed 18 something? I was like no, 1942, here in the heart of Texas actually.

Langston Clark:

And so Wait Juneteenth on a wrong day.

Langston Clark:

We had to say the whole holiday. I think it's important.

Cameron McKoy :

I think it's important for people to know that right, circular 3591, a critical. And the reason that propaganda piece is important is because the United States had to fight the propaganda war against the Nazis, and the Nazis knew that they could always exploit America by saying this is how you treat your black soldiers, this is how you treat your black airmen, this is how you treat your black sailors and this is how you treat your black Marines. So who's the bad guy here? If I'm Hitler and Moose Lee? You're letting our soldiers Italian and German POWs go into the PXA and you won't let your blacks in. You'll put German and Italian POWs in the front of your car and then you will not allow any of your black service members to ride.

Cameron McKoy :

So who's the bad guy here? And they leveraged that incredibly well. And so this picture that I was hoping and wishing for with the military was that you could put faces on front of those war bond advertisements so people could see hey, this is how we win united and this is how we fight united. And so that was something that I felt was a crushing blow for the allies at that time, because your propaganda was failing. And at the same time, you're interning Japanese-Americans.

Langston Clark:

I'm gonna throw some concepts at you that I want you to respond to for the audience, because these things stuck out to me Half American, half Marine, jim Crow, america Jim Crow Marines Okay, half.

Cameron McKoy :

American, half Marine. Their identity is split, right. Web Du Bois comes up. He has the definition of double consciousness, right, and so Marines are joining, and you have then the double V campaign. So you've got all these bifurcated terms right. They perfectly bifurcated. And so everything is double for blacks. We're singular for whites, and so blacks are trying to manage that. So they're half American, half Marine.

Cameron McKoy :

Okay, I can fight for my country, I can die for my country, right, but I can't live in my country with equal status. So they're split there, and I would argue even in three ways, right, they're dealing with it in various ways, more than two. The second one you asked me about Jim Crow, america, jim Crow Marines, all right, so America is setting the standard for everything and the military is just eating it up and saying well, this is what you do on the outside, you want us to represent America on the inside, so we're going to do exactly what you tell us to do. So if the population is 10% black on the outside, we will make it 10% black on the inside. And since Jim Crow is the rule of law and is disjure, racism, then we'll do the same thing in here, and it goes unchallenged. And so that's what blacks are experiencing.

Langston Clark:

And so it's interesting that we have to think about how difficult it was to be participating as a soldier, trying to get the rights you already deserve in the country in the highest form of citizenry as a soldier. But what's reflected in the mainstream of the country is also reflected in the military. Just imagine for a moment how difficult that is. I never thought about this until you put it in a book. So I always thought, when the brothers would come home from the war wearing their military garb, that it was a sense of pride, and I thought the war I look sharp, I got this on. So pride. The reason why they wore it they didn't have any other clothes. So white folks are offended when these brothers come back from these wars wearing their paraphernalia, thinking that they're being uppity or whatever. They ain't got no other clothes. And so that's the nuance of the historian providing the context, and so I thought that was important to share.

Cameron McKoy :

It's a target I mean when they wear that, they're also a target to the community. And it's this cognitive dissonance. Their minds can't put it together Like, wait, how were you able to go fight, be brave, return home and know you could potentially go back, and yet I haven't done that, as a white man who's seeing this occur. So they can't piece it all together.

Langston Clark:

Yeah, what do you do with that in that moment? Oh, we just go kill them. Yeah, that's it, because it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit my, like you said yeah, uppity source.

Cameron McKoy :

Oh, you think you're better than me because I drive a bus and you're wearing your uniform.

Langston Clark:

So I wear your uniform, you still got to get to the back. You know it was interesting. It was also interesting to see how they would lock brothers up for wearing their uniforms because they thought they were impersonating impersonating, yes, folks in the military, and so the very thing you were doing fighting for freedom could get you put in jail at home. But I digress, I want to move forward, because I thought it was also very interesting when you first started talking about Negrescence and causes, racial identity development theory and how it relates to the 1960s.

Langston Clark:

So we go from, like the Montfer point error of black Marines, to 20 years later, in the 1960s, we're in Vietnam and we have these younger black Marines who are getting drafted and whatnot, or Enlisted, however you want to. You can explain that Listing. They're being drafted I'll let the same and there's interracial tensions and there's Intrracial tensions. So talk about how, as we move into the 1960s, and there's this black awakening, this is the time where black people are like they're okay with being black, and what did that mean for the social relations inside of the military?

Cameron McKoy :

First of all, they're more than okay with being black. They're gonna let you know how black they are. Right, you know Eldridge Cleaver's soul on ice. For many general officers that was an explosive text, but they wouldn't even allowed to be put in the PX and took it off the bookshelf. So a lot of people who look today like they're banning books oh, trust me, this has been going on a long time. It's been going on a long time.

Cameron McKoy :

So, with the interracial piece, right, you really start to see the New York Times has a ton of articles about this word why even black Marines really are trying to find common ground. They really are. But it's the general officers who keep trying to make them have divisions, like they're trying to keep a divide between them and they all the junior Marines, are like no, we get along. We joke all the time and we say all these things to each other all the time cracker, coon, everything, like we're okay With it. But it's the higher house you say, no, you have to be like this. And they don't understand that. That's how the young Marines and the young generation, yeah, are wading through all of that tension from the 30s, 40s, 50s, so much so that that's where the intra racial heart really picks up. And it surprised me as well when I did the research on this, where you're finding the guys who served late in World War two or in Korea, and then the young bucks who were coming in and they're like no, black power, nation of Islam. They're butting heads with them because they're looking at those guys as, hey, you're just a careerist, we just got drafted, yeah? And so you're kissing the white man's butt, right? And so I think we're a G audience. I don't want to say anything, we got a pass in here, so. And they're saying, no, this is how we create the legacy for us, by being Pliable, by doing what we're told. We demonstrate. We can't lead ourselves. We're not savages, right, we're not a minister society as portrayed during the Civil War. And the young black guys like, no, this is how black manhood is demonstrated by standing up. And so there's a clash there about, yeah, from the generations, right, we see this generational clash and they're saying, no, this black power is what it means. And they're like, no, we're the five fingers together by by Booker T Washington, yeah. And then these brothers are saying, no, we're taking the Marcus Garvey, we're taking the Malcolm X and we're not turning the other cheek. And so that's where the clash is.

Cameron McKoy :

The Marine Corps kind of relents at this point because it see it observes the change when they start letting. They said what's so different between the white boys doing the peace sign and us doing the clench fists Instead of a salute, and the Marine Corps kind of lets it go for a little bit but realize his weight. We just messed up like there's certain traditions that are just military we have to continue to hold into places. So there's clashes over just that alone, but adhering to the protocols that are in the military. And then they kind of let off a little bit on haircuts and let brothers grow no small froze out and things like that, because Everything is based on a white system.

Cameron McKoy :

So black men can't shade the same way white men do. That's what they're highlighting. Black men don't use the same products that white men do. So you start to see the shelves change ebony and jet.

Cameron McKoy :

These are magazines you all may not know about.

Cameron McKoy :

These are magazines that talk about black life, that promote black life, and so it's like if you had this slam basketball magazine and then like something from Indiana, you know from French licking, and Larry bird was right and if a Larry bird is a bad brother too. So I don't want to mess and get sidetracked on that, but that's what you're seeing and they're saying. Look, the construction that you have made is Set for a white person who comes in, not for a black person who comes, and that's where the clashes come and that's where you I've already highlighted this the intro racial, but you have northern blacks who are interacting and engaging with southern blacks. It's very, very different from a culture standpoint it's talking earlier about that with Nigerians who are first generation and immigrants who come to United States versus black Americans who've been here. There's a clash there and we see that same thing occurring in the Marine Corps at the same time. Northern blacks Just really have a very poor taste in their mouth about southern blacks and the feelings mutual.

Langston Clark:

Yeah. So when the white boys are throwing up the peace sign, they're hippies, right and like. Sometimes we forget how radical hippies were. Hippies weren't like. They wouldn't always peace signs, like my mama told me he was blowing stuff up, you know me they were there was some radical hippies that was still throwing up the peace sign. So when those black Marines were like we can't do the black power fist, but they could do the peace sign, it was an interesting thing for them to point out.

Langston Clark:

I also want to know, like the language that was used by the younger brothers to describe the older brothers who were Careerists, and so like they was calling them Uncle Tom's, like they got all the language, all the words because they were coming up in an era when, you know, you had people saying we shouldn't be fighting in the war. And how did I get here? And so in some ways I view that as like the way that they're treating us. It might be some resentment there. I resent the fact that you've made a career this and they forced me into this war. And then we talked about the systemic racism and how white folks were able to avoid Participating in the war because they were going to college at race. Their brothers couldn't. So if you weren't going to college, you got drafted.

Cameron McKoy :

So and they ended up being loopholes, right, like a lot of whites ended up using like the reserves of the National Guard as a loophole To stay home. But I mean one of the most prominent example out of all, that becomes Muhammad Ali for a lot of these young Marines at the time, and Malcolm X Become significant. But Ali really sets this standard and I talked to my dad Right, he was alive when Ali was in his prime and I tried to talk to my dad about that. I was like what was Ali like? And he told me like camera, I can't. He doesn't even exist today. So I was like, well, is there an equivalent? Like Tiger Woods, it when he was in his heyday, michael Jordan he's like no, he's like there's no one I can compare to Ali and his significance and there are times I think I'm like I wish I just could have seen him. I mean my dad said I can't even describe the impact he had. Muhammad Ali Ended up being an incredibly powerful force for young blacks during the Vietnam era.

Langston Clark:

And so a little bit more about this National Guard and the loopholes.

Langston Clark:

It's interesting that if you think about it from a constitutional perspective, if Muhammad Ali is saying my religion doesn't promote going to war in that way, it would make sense that he wouldn't be a candidate for war. That would be his loophole. But the white guys was going into the National Guard. And what's interesting when you say that is that the National Guard was, there's like this reverse thing that happened right. So at first they wouldn't let brothers participate fully, like you couldn't go, you were participating in the effort but you weren't going to war in the same way. Then what happens is now brothers are going to war more than anybody else and the white dudes are taking the easy way out, which is the National Guard. But what's interesting about the National Guard is is that they were also. It was the safest place and it was the last place to integrate, and so I think that it's mindful for us to think about, like the context of what that means and how people play systems to be Advantage and get opportunities Also remember the national.

Cameron McKoy :

I mean we're in the high, you're talking like 63 to 68 the National Guard was being used by the federal government to put down Watts riots in Detroit in 67 and so even though brothers could find their way into it that's again goes back to your earlier question about half American. You know, half man, they're like wait. So now I have to go into a black community and enforce Basically martial law on my own people and this is the only neighborhoods we're going into.

Langston Clark:

We're not going into any other Internet or addressing any other national emergencies and remember, like I said, hippies was burning stuff down too, according to my mom. As we get towards the end of the book, I kind of think of it as going from disregarded to honored. And you talked about the brother who recently Became the four-star general. What's his name? Again, general Michael, like general Michael Langley? Talk about in the more modern era, how, you see, even though there may still be some tensions and things that exist, how do we get to the point of honoring these brothers at Montfort Point and these other brothers who fought in these wars, and what has that part of the history been like?

Cameron McKoy :

Your question is perfect. I actually just submitted, on the 23rd, an article to the National World War II Museum about this and I was asked about three layers the legacy, what does their commemoration, memorialization mean today? And then, what mark have they left in the Marine Corps? And actually it was much more difficult to write than I thought. After writing all this, you think, oh, this should come easy. You're asked a different set of questions, and so their legacy is one that has always been somewhat contested and I don't believe that it's been appreciated. What it means today. I still don't know the answer to that. I believe, and I know people recognize them and know that they receive the Congressional Gold Medal and the Congressional Gold Medal is the highest award you can receive for a group from the civilian authority, from the President of the United States, for their contributions, their perseverance in fighting the war. The mark that is left on the Marine Corps, I believe, is tenuous, because people are getting louder and louder, being more informed about it and are saying, okay, it's been 80 years, you only have one Black Forest Star to show for in 80 years and counting. The Army had its first Black General by 1944 and three years ago. Or we're in 2024, three years ago, the mandate was made through that Charles Young would be posthumously commissioned to Brigadier General One Star, and so he's now officially the Army's first Black General and the United States' first Black General recognizes as such.

Cameron McKoy :

I don't know what to ask for when it comes to the Marine Corps or officials. I don't know exactly what the Black community gains, and I want to be very clear about that. I don't know exactly what the Black community gains from it, and I'm only talking about my personal fields. I'm not looking for an apology I don't think that is necessary but I would like to see greater efforts in looking at your talent and saying you know what. We may want to fast-track a couple of sharp individuals in here, because this can become a national security problem for us, especially as the world has globalized and become smaller in so many ways. That may hurt the United States moving forward, and I know a lot of people may feel or have felt when Barack Obama became president and he had his two terms, everything was fixed. We're in a post-racial society.

Cameron McKoy :

Those are different thoughts I have, which I will not get into tonight, and I'm not saying there has to be another Black president or anything for us to understand how the nation has been scarred through racism, how it has been scarred through slavery. But I'd like to just see hey, you know, we have a lot of talent and untapped reservoir that we have just bypassed for so long. I haven't seen another Colin Powell. Where is he, where is she? And I'll end on this with that example.

Cameron McKoy :

Look at Alabama football. All of a sudden it gets spanked right by USC with one Black running back there. Brian decides oh, I had no idea those guys were that talented. And I would argue his legacy behind now, nick Saber, he's probably the greatest coach ever. People thought and that was only through tapping a resource that had largely been ignored. And I see kind of those trends happening and I hope that they can be addressed in a way that number one still respects the military's rank and file, this protocols, but still be able to identify and maybe fast track some of those people so that they can have opportunities to really showcase their talent in ways that most people don't know because they've been stuck on the traditional model. Yeah, yeah, I hope I said that the wrong. I hope I said that was good.

Langston Clark:

It was good, and don't get mad, because there are people who get fast tracked right In every profession, and I remember Dr Moore had this conversation I think this was before you got to UT and he was talking about his is. I'm like you know what these white boys do. He was like they'll find somebody in their frat that's like 20 years old and they'll pick them out and they'll say this person will be CEO by the time they 40. It happens everywhere. So this isn't like asking for some special type of affirmative action. There are people who get fast tracked. It just doesn't happen to us in the same way. I want to open this opportunity up for people in the audience to ask some questions and those of you who are in the zoom brother, which is receiving your questions, and he'll relay them to us, but people who are sitting here in the audience live today. If y'all have any questions or things you want to ask, cameron, now was your opportunity to do so, okay.

Speaker 2:

I'm curious in your research did you discover any black marines from over to who decided not to return to the US after the war? You know there have been several stories throughout military history of black servicemen fighting in these wars, choosing to stay in Vietnam or choosing to stay in Japan instead of returning home to the races, and that was a way to discover any of that in your research.

Cameron McKoy :

For those of you watching at home, Leroy asked me if I discovered any black marines who decided to not return to the United States stay in the Pacific. Largely I didn't come across anything that was profound and I didn't come across anything that led me to believe that they stayed. And I'll tell you what did emerge out of that. They were so anxious to get back because they had broken through this color barrier and they wanted to recruit as hard as they could when they came back and what they wanted to do was just to secure their rights as men and demonstrate to the world that look at what we did as US Marines your toughest branch of service and look at what we were able to accomplish. And then many of them wanted to take those skills and evolve them into more self-defense measures, and I'll leave it at that. All right, I'll call Leroy.

Langston Clark:

Walkthrough, Sorry. And then Uche a question from the audience.

Langston Clark:

This is a question from Jerry Sharp. It says could you all discuss the Golden Thirteen Navy pilots similar to the Tuskegee Bermuda?

Cameron McKoy :

So the Golden Thirteen were 13 officers. One was a warren officer out of the Navy. We're the first officers to come in and this occurred in the World War II era. I don't do a lot of research on them so this is a little difficult, mr Sharp, for me to get to. But the Tuskegee Airmen made their mark flying and we know they're escorting of B-17s. But their story is the most prominent because it was the most visible and the European theater remember the United States had a strategy of Europe first, so it was the most visible. And what these men proved or disproved to many people it depends on which side of the scale you're on was that blacks were competent, they were legitimate war fighters and not just stevedores and stewards and longshoremen for duration of the war. But the Golden Thirteen I haven't done enough investigation on that because it was outside the scope of just my research for the Menomoffer point.

Langston Clark:

All right, so there are no other questions. I'm going to ask my final two questions. The first one is for those student athletes who will listen to this later on when we put it on the African-American SportPod class. What insights or advice could you give to them who may be thinking about going into the military as a career? The last and final question is if there were another chapter or some other part of the book that you would add, what would it be?

Cameron McKoy :

Okay, you may have to remind me of the second part. Well, I'll address the first one. Yep, a lot depends on what they want, out of luck, so I need some help from the audience for those who are already retired I think it was 2014,. The military changes retirement to where you? You were 2015, maybe, yeah, 2014, 2015. Yeah, to borrow stock options.

Cameron McKoy :

Right. So it changed the retirement. That was a game changer. So people had the option of at that time, if you had already been in, you weren't even automatically grandfathered, you just signed we call it a page 11 in the Marine Corps saying, no, I want to keep to the 20 year retirement and then I receive my pension for that for the rest of my life and if I want to, I can change the percentages on it so that when I die it will go to my spouse and then they will receive it until they die. So that was a game changer about 10 years ago. And so now it's set up more of what you pay in or buy into through some whatever retirement account.

Cameron McKoy :

But it just depends on what it is you want to gain from the military. Most of the time it's about skill sets and opportunities, right, and leadership becomes one of those. And so leadership it really is the hallmark of when someone mentions the military. They think about leadership and if I'm wrong, somebody jumping and correct me on that. But hey, this is where I get skills, or gain skills right away. Number two people have to listen to you, yeah, like, because it's law. Like they have to listen to me and I like you, but they have to listen to you. Sometimes they don't, and guess what? There is a system to take care of that called the UCMJ. So I would say to someone, if they wanted to go into day number one, it is an advantage, right? People really want to hire veterans. They understand the type of discipline they bring to an organization and they know they're getting an adult in the room when they have it and it just never leaves you with.

Cameron McKoy :

If you decide to go in, whether you enlist, whether you commission, the skill set you gain in there can't be as tough to measure it, but companies know how to measure it. You may not be able to vote, companies know how to measure it, and I don't like giving advice, langston, because that means I have to follow it. Yeah, right. But what I would say is, if it's for something where you want to see, hey, what type of ideas do I continue to subscribe to, or which ideas do I need to unsubscribe from, what things do I need to reposition in my life, rearrange, do I need to pivot?

Cameron McKoy :

I will argue that the military serves as a really good plot for really helping you evaluate who you truly are, and it will help you reveal that very quickly. I would liken it to sports, right. You learn a lot about yourself and that's when you ask me about my identity. The Marine Corps is the place where I learn the most about myself and that's why I share that with other people who may disagree, and that's fine, but for me, I don't believe I would be sitting here today with you had I not made that decision, and I don't think I'd be as fortunate as I am in my life if I had never made that decision.

Cameron McKoy :

Second question was if I had more time or if there was a chapter or anything that I write in the book. I would have liked to have written a chapter on the current Black general officers and what their views have been over time as they've retired. I would like to have written which is one chapter on that, but I already got that in the works, ok. So I would have liked to have just been able to dedicate a chapter to that, but it would have ruined this story of these men of legend If I had added that in there.

Cameron McKoy :

But I really would like to have talked about the HBCU experience for those generals that came, because those were typically the primary opportunities for them, right, and we got our Aggies in the house right what that was like for them, and then the transition and then becoming a general officer, and I would have liked to have added that in, but I knew that it was outside the scope of this research.

Langston Clark:

I think there's another question from the virtual audience.

Langston Clark:

This is from Kimberly Castillo. She says when talking amongst different generations, do you find one in particular is reluctant to speak openly on their experiences?

Cameron McKoy :

Oh, kimberly, I like that question. That's a really good one. I've come to learn that every generation is apprehensive to speak about their experiences, to a certain extent because they're at different points in their career where they don't want to ruin what they've accomplished. If I'm hearing your question correctly, I think you may be alluding to hey, once you've reached a certain status and you kind of have committed to the military let's say year 10 or 12, where it's like, hey, I just peaked over, where I'm kind of a made person in the military, it can my voice be larger. And I would argue that, as I've watched many of my peers where they are at the going from the mid career to the senior career, they're actually more vocal because their voices are more important now than they were before.

Cameron McKoy :

And it's a different time now. I know I'm getting some steps from the crowd, but it's very different with how social media has changed things and it's like what recourse do you have on them if they're saying something? That number one they can get backing from much more quickly than they could before. So maybe 20 years ago. That's not happening. You're keeping your mouth shut and doing your job, especially with the global war on terror happening. But just recently Stu Scheller was a lieutenant colonel in the United States Marine Corps and he spoke out against the efforts by senior officers and politicians about the withdrawal from Afghanistan and he was immediately fired. But he knew he was ready for that and to my knowledge Stu Scheller has gained a following after that. He gained a following. He published a book and has been handsomely compensated for that, whereas his retirement although he jeopardized it

Cameron McKoy :

he's going to be fine, and so it just depends on where you want to stand and be seen, what side of history you want to be seen on in the end. But there's always going to be ramifications. If you speak out against the ivory tower, if you speak out against the stars, it will happen. But people are just not as afraid as they used to be anymore and I just see that being people are speaking out more and more and less afraid. It's such a minority I don't think it's enough to overturn the institution, but it absolutely does get noticed and I'll leave it on this.

Cameron McKoy :

The reason I say this is because we've seen all these bases change names Ford Hood is I don't know what it is for, kavoscos Exactly, and Fayetteville, the one where Bragg is now Liberty. And so, even though I'm getting some stairs from the crowd, one individual specifically, it can. When you speak out, it can change, and there's always tradeoffs for it, kimberly. There are always tradeoffs Kimberly, and I think with the new pension program, I think we saw that shift happen a decade ago when it came to you buy in now, whereas before people were grandfathered and they could lose their pension, and now people are not tied to that anymore. They're not tied to a pension anymore. That was when I began to see the change. Thanks, kimberly.

Langston Clark:

All right, I think actually Kimberly was the perfect guest to end this conversation with, because Kimberly is one of our patrons who supports entrepreneurial appetite, which is working with the African Americans in sport podcast. They're both my podcast, so they're working together. And so, kimberly, I owe you one of these books and Mimi and Demetri for supporting the podcast, you will get one of these. You'll get one of these copies as well. Also want to note that entrepreneurial appetite side of this podcast goes to support and endowment that I started at my alma mater, north Carolina and T Aggie pride. Y'all didn't say nothing back.

Cameron McKoy :

They've been up there throwing signs. You didn't look in this way. They've been represented.

Langston Clark:

So 10% of whatever the patrons do to support and whatever the folks who join the event right go to support goes to support that endowment. The from ANT, the PhD endowed scholarship for people getting degrees in education in the graduate school and education at ANT was started by me, terrell Morton and Brittany Patrick. The three of us are all either completed a PhD journey or are still on that journey, and so, for those of you who are here with us today, if you want to join the patron, it's $5 a month. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you for joining this edition of entrepreneurial appetite. If you like the episode, you can support the show by becoming one of our founding 55 patrons, which gives you access to our live discussions and bonus materials, or you can subscribe to the show. Get us five stars and leave a comment.