Entrepreneurial Appetite

American Wings: The Legacy of Black Aviators with Sherri L. Smith and Elizabeth Wein

• Elizabeth Wein, Sherri L. Smith • Season 5 • Episode 44

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How did two extraordinary Black women, Willa Brown and Janet Harmon Bragg, break through aviation’s racial and gender barriers in the early 20th century? Discover the inspiring story behind "American Wings: Chicago's Pioneering Black Aviators and the Race for Equality in the Sky," as we sit down with authors Sherri L. Smith and Elizabeth Wein, who meticulously documented their revolutionary achievements. Guided by special guest host Dr. Theodore Johnson, we explore the motivations and the meticulous research that brought these hidden narratives to light.

Throughout our conversation, we highlight how Brown's exceptional networking skills and Bragg's financial acuity formed a formidable team, driving their aviation group to overcome substantial obstacles. The episode delves into the historical challenges faced by the Tuskegee Airmen and the Women's Air Force Service Pilots, emphasizing how community and political engagement were pivotal in fostering real change. We explore the importance of maintaining progress towards racial equity in aviation, drawing lessons from the teamwork and allyship that were crucial in breaking down barriers.

Furthermore, we examine the crucial role of allyship in advancing racial equity, spotlighting historical allies like Eleanor Roosevelt and Harry Truman, who supported Black aviators. Our guests provide practical advice for modern allyship, underscoring the need to listen and engage genuinely with marginalized communities. By highlighting the stories of underrepresented pioneers and the efforts of organizations like OBAP, we aim to inspire ongoing support and recognition in the aviation industry and beyond. Join us for this enlightening discussion that reclaims and celebrates the rich, yet often overlooked, history of Black aviators.

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Langston Clark :

Hey everyone, thank you again for your support of Entrepreneurial Appetite. Beginning this season, we are inviting our listeners to support the show through our Patreon website. The founding 55 patrons will get live access to our monthly discussions for only $5 a month. Your support will help us hire an intern or freelancer to help with the production of the show. Of course, you can also support us by giving us five stars, leaving a positive comment or sharing the show with a few friends. Thank you for your continued support.

Langston Clark :

I want to thank all of you for joining us here today. My name is Langston Clark. I'm the founder and organizer of Entrepreneurial Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting Black businesses. And if you look over my shoulder here, you will see American Wings, the book, but you will also see this book right here. You know how hard it is to do this. Looking backwards in the camera, you'll also see this book, and that is basically a plaque for the from A&T to PhD endowed scholarship is the endowment agreement between myself, dr Terrell Morton and Miss Brittany Patrick, who's a doctoral candidate at the University of Maryland College Park. And so those of you who are joining us as patrons, those of you who join us through eventbrite 10% or whatever you give to support the show goes back to that endowment.

Langston Clark :

And I want to start off by introducing our special guest host, dr Theodore Johnson, who, in addition to being secretary and a board member of the Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals, is an assistant professor in the University of Nebraska, omaha's Aviation Institute and our featured guest for today. We have Sherri L. Smith and we have Elizabeth Wein, who are the authors of American Wings, chicago's Pioneering Black Aviators and the Race for Equality in the Sky. When I think about supporting Black businesses, I think about that in the broadest sense, right? And so it is an honor to have Dr Johnson here representing the organization of Black aerospace professionals, and so we want to highlight organizations like that so that people in our community and other communities know the entrepreneurial, business and organizational efforts that we put into uplifting the good work and maintaining the history that we have. And so, dr Johnson, I will let you take it over and I will fade to the background and thank our guests in the audience for joining us here today as well.

Theodore Johnson :

Excellent, excellent. Welcome everyone. Dr Clark, I appreciate the introduction and to the authors, it's great to be amongst you. I feel very honored and I would like to say on behalf of the entire board of OBAC, because Organization Black Aerospace Professionals is a mouthful. We are extremely proud to be in this space and to have such phenomenal pioneers have their stories told in such an eloquent way for all to read, because we know that Black history sometimes is often overlooked and neglected when it's a part of American history and it should be propagated as such. So I know myself as an academician. One of two on the board. Being invited to read this book was very humbling and yet I was extremely honored and found myself kind of struggling to put the book down. I nearly read a cover to cover on the first take. So I have to say it was an excellent read and I have to really emphasize the word excellent. So thank you for the time taken to do it.

Elizabeth Wein :

I was going to say it's a mutual admiration society, because we're really delighted that it's found its way into your hands.

Theodore Johnson :

It feels like you know, this is a match made in heaven. Absolutely. I would like to commend the two of you for publishing this piece, really by any means necessary. Writing is no easy feat, let alone doing an entire book. As somebody in the academic space, I kind of know what it takes to publish and I tip my hat to you all a thousand times over, especially when you consider the fact you did this. All you did this over a pandemic took numerous hours of research and writing, scouring archives just to compile the information and to put it all together in a legible and digestible format.

Theodore Johnson :

I felt it very befitting that I was the one to have the discussion with you all about this book, given that C Coffey's origin story kind of began in Omaha, nebraska. I teach there and spend some time there, so that was almost a full circle moment for me just to be able to read that and have an instant connection. And lastly, I really want to commend and highlight the imagery used in the photos that were incorporated. I was not expecting those photos, the original photos and artifacts, to be included in a book like this. However, it really added a certain amount of depth and gravitas to the narrative that you all created and elephant storytelling as well.

Theodore Johnson :

Every time I opened the book I felt like I was almost in a time machine, being transported alongside these different pioneers and flying with them, and when you can do that with a book, you know you've really got something extraordinary. So, with that being said, I kind of want to I kind of want to, you know transition to some of the questions I have that I'm quite sure many other readers will have as well to kind of maybe dive into this book and uncover some things that weren't covered and get your all sentiments on the book itself. So I'll start out kind of light and we'll essentially dive into deeper, more structured questions. But the first thing that I would like to know is what inspired you to write American Wings?

Elizabeth Wein :

I will start this off because it was my baby to begin with. I had encountered most of the people who we write about. We focus on four main characters Cornelius Coffey, as you mentioned, and John C Robinson, and two women, willa Brown and Janet Herman Bragg. And I write fiction mostly and I write historical fiction, and I'd run into these people and I incorporated sort of Johnny Robinson-type character in my book Blacked Out, white Raven, and I wanted to write about them. I actually wanted to write nonfiction about them and I had written another nonfiction book and I realized this was just going to be so much work.

Elizabeth Wein :

And about that time Sherri's agent sent me a copy of a book that she had written to get an endorsement for it. I'd read one of her other books, a fiction novel, sly Girl, which is about a Black pilot who passes as white so she can join the Women's Air Force Service pilots during World War II, and it's a great book. And I also knew that she'd written nonfiction about the Tuskegee Airmen and I thought I bet that this woman, can you know, is the perfect person to write this book with me. She had a kind of different story to tell.

Sherri L. Smith:

Very different story. So I had written this book Fly Girl, and when it came out everybody said, oh my God, have you read Elizabeth Ween's book Codename Verity? It's amazing. And it just started to feel like Elizabeth was my nemesis, because my book just made people tell me how great her book was instead of anything about my own book. And so I was a little reluctant and my agent was like Elizabeth would be a great person to write a jacket blurb for you. So she reaches out and she comes back to me and she's like Elizabeth said yes, but she says she wants to talk to you. And I had this feeling that I was like, oh, we're going to have it out now I'm going to take off my earrings and we're going to meet in the alley and have fisticuffs over this book, because Code Name Verity is also a World War II women in aviation story. But it is a female pilot and her friend, a spy, behind enemy lines in Europe and it is amazing.

Sherri L. Smith:

I read it and begrudgingly was like, yeah, okay, yeah, that was fantastic. So she said she wants to talk to you and when she reached out, she's like you know you've written about Cornelius Coffey. He's mentioned in Fly Girl. There is a sidebar about him in the Tuskegee Airmen, my little Tuskegee Airmen book which is called Hoover the Tuskegee Airmen, and she's like would you want to tell this story with me? And I knew Janet Harmon Bragg and I knew Cornelius Coffey and I said yes, and we had never met in person. But we spent the next three years over this pandemic researching from afar and traveling when we finally could to pull the story together and I'm so grateful we finally we met for the first time to sort of compile our first draft the year before the book came out. And then the second time was really when the book came out and we were talking to a group of students and one of them raised their hands and they said, excuse me, are you two best friends?

Elizabeth Wein :

No, we barely like each other, but we know people going down to like 10 dance together.

Sherri L. Smith:

It's been an amazing journey and all the more important because the story needed to be brought together. It's been told pieces here and there, but it really needed to be compiled.

Theodore Johnson :

Absolutely. I 100% agree. I don't think that this book carries the same weight or stresses the same importance or highlights these figures if you two don't write it. You know, I think it was almost destined for you two to come together, almost like two puzzle pieces coming together and able to craft something, and I'm really elated that you all were able to overcome. There were a lot of things that could have went left with writing this book and neither of you let that happen and everything went right. So I for one am extremely happy.

Theodore Johnson :

Again, I cannot sing your praises high enough for making this book possible and plan to incorporate into my curriculum. I teach a diversity in aviation course and these are figures that we cover, but there is not enough detail in the slideshows and things like that that can really underscore the impact of these pioneers. So I want to use that and kind of pivot to my next question In what ways did some of these prominent aviators that you mentioned Cornelius Coffey, bessie Coleman, john C Robinson inspire future generations to perhaps take flight or even consider aviation as a field? Because we know participation rates historically have been low and they continue to be low even today.

Elizabeth Wein :

Sheree, I think you have some very strong feelings about this.

Sherri L. Smith:

I do because it's a triumph and a tragedy in a way, because in their own time these four aviators and I would say Willa Brown almost at the forefront of it they really had a lot to do with bringing the race as they referred to other Black people, the Black community in America, into the sky by doing air shows to get excitement going. She strolls into the offices of the Chicago Defender in an all-white flying outfit and makes every male head in the room turn because she looks like Lena Horne right, and gets them to start covering what they're doing. And then the four of them in their own ways pushed for a historically Black university and colleges and for the government to support African Americans in aviation. So in that way they really everybody almost every male that passed through their doors during the war years became a Tuskegee Airman. They trained the people that taught the Tuskegee Airmen. They did a lot to bring Black people into aviation and even into his later years, coffey, after the war and everything he taught at an aviation program at a local high school in Chicago. So that's amazing.

Sherri L. Smith:

But then the tragedy side of it is that I'm from Chicago. My brother actually ended up getting a degree in aeronautical and astronautical engineering from the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana. So he was studying math and science in high school in Chicago, and this is a kid who grew up building model airplanes and rockets that took off in our backyard and he had never heard of Cornelius Coffey, and neither had I until I wrote Fly Girl and I now know that Cornelius Coffey was living just a few miles away from us at the same time that we were in high school and we never knew about him, his accomplishments. And I asked my brother what that would have done for him as one of the only Black kids in the aerospace engineering program and he said it would have changed everything. It would have changed everything to know that there were pioneers and that he had forefathers in this thing that he was trying to do. So hopefully this book will give that gift to the next generation of young Black aviation and aeronautics and astrophysical professionals.

Elizabeth Wein :

The idea that you're not constantly trailblazing, you're not constantly breaking new ground, that other people have actually gone before you. There is a path there.

Sherri L. Smith:

And studies show that students that are aware of the pioneers have better outcomes in their own careers 100%.

Theodore Johnson :

You know that representation that you're alluding to is major. At our conference, where we kind of consider the black mecca of aviation aerospace, we get to see some of those pioneers, one being Teresa Claiborne, who just retired from United and being one of the first from United and being one of the first and you know, being a trailblazer, but now you know being remained and remaining in the field and being a change agent in some way. She's not the last and just having a representation you can touch. Often with aviation and aerospace, you know we tell people how to get involved but we have to do a better, good job of showing them and actually taking their hand and reaching, connecting the people and doing that. And it's just amazing the difference one person can make. And you mentioned that the hope of this book will be able to foster some change and advance some efforts in the equity space, in the exposure space. I definitely think it will and as an educator, it's my charge to make sure that happens and as an organization and fiduciary of OBAP, I definitely think that's also something we can do with our platform. So I would say, consider that done and we will definitely let you know how things go.

Theodore Johnson :

But you mentioned Willow Brown and I feel like I have to say this now I was amazed at just how much she did in getting things done. I mean, I feel like every time I turned around she was, you know, as you mentioned, showing up someplace submitting a grant, getting things on credit or loan, at a time where you know that was kind of unheard of and they didn't have the resources, but if they needed it she was usually the one to get it done and it was not a well, let's see, it was her understanding what would need to be done, putting pen to paper or showing up and then next thing they knew they had two airplanes, so they had money or they had connections, and that type of execution was critical. And I feel like, because the low percentage of women in the industry that exists now, even back then, that that has to be highlighted, because one could argue that without her networking ability, which is major in this industry, they may not have been able to be as successful as they were, at least not as time-wise.

Elizabeth Wein :

Yeah, I think that's probably true. And while we're teasing about Willa Brown, I just want to point out you know she was the first Black American woman to get a pilot's license, a federal pilot's license. So Bessie Coleman, you know, paved the way by getting an international pilot's license, but Willa Brown was the first to get a federal pilot's license and she was the first Black woman to get a commercial pilot, a limited commercial pilot's license. She was the first Black woman to be an officer of the Civil Air Patrol. In addition to being an administrator and being this really outgoing, vivacious person, she also was a very accomplished pilot. She was really the person who kind of drove me in this direction in the first place, because everything I found out about her, I was just like smitten with how amazing she was. But yeah, I think you have an argument there.

Sherri L. Smith:

I think it's worth pointing out I was going to say I think it's worth pointing out that this was at a time when the options for a Black woman were to be a nurse, to be a teacher or be a domestic servant, to be a maid, and she was on the teacher track. She went to business school, which would be more like an administrative and secretarial program, and was teaching. And then she had this shift in her life, through a tragedy, that led her to put all of those skills into something that was brand new, really, that nobody ever thought of before. And the other woman, Janet Harmon Bragg. She was a nurse where she could channel the steady income that her nursing gave her to help lift up the group and buy an airplane and provide what they needed to get things going. And Coffey does say at the end of his life that this could not have happened without the help of these two women.

Theodore Johnson :

Absolutely, and I'm really glad he gave them their flowers. I'm quite sure he sung their praises while they were in the trenches. You know getting things done. You all mentioned the first several firsts and just trailblazing. There's often this rhetoric that exists in society today that suggests that just because there are Black people in certain spaces that they weren't before, that the US is in a state of racial equity, and research will show you that that's not true by any means, because multiple industries are definitely underrepresented transportation and aviation, airspace being one of them. I wonder what are your thoughts on how the experiences from those that you've calculated in this book, how can that apply to current efforts to help achieve real racial equity in a field like aviation or aerospace?

Sherri L. Smith:

I do think that one of the lessons this book offers is teamwork, and that is within the community, within the Black community, but also real allyship outside of the Black community, and it takes both teams pulling in the same direction to make real change. There was a famous Goodwill flight that Chauncey Spencer and Dale White took to Washington DC. They visited Black schools and colleges on the way back, but their goal was to fly to DC to try to convince the government to help support Blacks. In aviation met a young senator named Harry Truman, who you know. He took a look at their airplane and said if you're brave enough to fly that, I'm brave enough to try to get you what you need. Lo and behold, he would be the man in 1948 to desegregate the United States military. So that is, it's a sort of a long game because that flight was in the early 30s. It's a long game to play, but that's what it takes sometimes to make real change.

Sherri L. Smith:

And I think the real shame of it is that by the time you know the Tuskegee Airmen are flying towards the end of World War II to great success. Their legacy was hidden from mainstream America and it was something that was promoted in Black communities almost exclusively so that when they returned people didn't believe that they had done the things they had done. So a door was shut that had been just been jimmied open was shut again, and it took many years for accolades to be given to them. The same was true with women and the women's Air Force service pilots. So once we blaze these trails I mean it's very hard to be swinging a machete, blazing a trail and trying to keep the path open behind you. So we need a community to help keep pulling the weeds, and maybe a book or two to wedge the doors open, you know, and keep them shimmied open.

Elizabeth Wein :

One of the things that we noticed when we were kind of talking about this before is that there was Sherri mentioned allyship. There was so much interaction between ordinary people and their political leaders in the 1920s and 1930s in a way that I think we've kind of lost sight of nowadays, and so people thought nothing of writing to the president's wife and getting the governor to come and speak at their little clubs in real days, their clubs and their ceremonies and this kind of thing. I feel like there's more of a divide between us now and that maybe one way to make these things happen is actually to canvas local government, begin back at the grassroots and talk to local congressmen and senators, because that's what these people were doing and that's what got them noticed, and it is amazing to go through their archives and see letters written repeatedly to Theodore Roosevelt, to Eleanor Roosevelt, to anybody, as if they were your neighbor, saying, hey, we're doing this thing and we need your help.

Sherri L. Smith:

And then the black press at the time, the Chicago Defender in particular. And then, because the black press, the Chicago Defender, was sort of like the flagship of Black Press in the United States, they disseminated all across the nation these stories to make sure that every community was aware of what was going on and joining in to pin these legislative leaders and request their presence and I think the reception that they got in terms of response and actual action.

Theodore Johnson :

The Harry Truman comment was one of my favorites in there because it just showed like, okay, since you did this, I'll go to bat for you. And we know that the pen is mightier than the sword, especially when it comes to getting stuff done in legislation. And that's really just the first step because it can be written, but I was executed and administered to something completely different. But that was a you know my, excuse me monumental and milestone legislation for them in a solid way. And I think getting back to the grassroots, as you mentioned, elizabeth, is one thing that should be done because a lot of times local leaders and even some state leaders aren't really aware of all the nuances of aviation or aerospace. They just know and they may serve on a committee and they get a slate of stuff to talk about, but I mean, you know, without their staff or things like that, they might not be as informed as they should be to really make some long-term decisions.

Elizabeth Wein :

This is something I just finished flying from east to west, west to east, across the USA and back again in a small plane, and I visited a lot of the sites in the book. Well, I live in Scotland, I learned to fly in Scotland and I was so impressed with how the FAA provides for and takes care of its aviators when I was flying across the USA and how, on the air, you know, when you're talking on the radio and you're navigating, how democratic it is, and I think people are unaware of this and you know, with good reason, that it's kind of arcane, it's secret knowledge and, as you're saying, you may get put on a committee and not know anything about it, and so, yeah, it's really just. It's not just it's a big thing to do, but we do need to, you know, make people aware and talk to each other.

Theodore Johnson :

And it's something so simple as communication, which is one of the three big principles of aviation Aviate, navigate, communicate Something that, though social media for one but for other reasons has become more difficult for some people to engage in, or I should say, maybe even having dialogue, to take it a step further is something that seems to be somewhat of a lost art nowadays, for, again, various reasons. You mentioned earlier allyship, and that was huge. In this book we talked about Harry Truman, but there were also other people who were allies to these pioneers and lending them resources, planes or offering flights, and so I want to kind of ask the two of you how can the actions of those individuals who were non-minoritized or white Americans inform allyship of today? Because I often hear a lot of times people throw the term around or they say they want to be an ally, but they don't know what that means or where to start.

Elizabeth Wein :

You know, I think one of the great examples really actually there are a ton of examples in the book but probably the most famous person is Eleanor Roosevelt saying, yeah, I'll take a flight near plane and getting in this Piper Cub at Tuskegee Airfield and going for a spin against the wishes of her entourage to show that, yeah, black people could fly. But there are also, I think, some of the quieter or just less flashy characters in the book who give jobs to people who don't care what color their skin is, as long as they're going to do the work well. And I don't know how to take this as an example and to make it to make people go. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. That's a good idea.

Sherri L. Smith:

I do have a suggestion there, and it is. And it's in the Truman story, it's in the Elmer Roosevelt story, it's in the Emile Mack story. That's who I was thinking. Yeah, who's Johnny. And Coffee's boss who helps them get into aviation school in the first place. And that is listen, if you want to be an ally, ask the person you want to ally. What do you want? What are you going for? Oh, you know. Emile Mack said what's going on. He said and Coffee said I'm trying to get into this aviation program and they won't. Let me Tell me about it. Truman says what are you guys here for? And he's like oh, we're trying to get you to support Black people in aviation. Tell me about it, eleanor Roosevelt. Oh, I hear that Black people are down there flying in Tuskegee. No, that's ridiculous. Black people can't fly. I want to go see, show me.

Elizabeth Wein :

Can I join you? Actually? Another good example is Jack Snyder, the instructor at the flight school. When he heard that Johnny and Coffee had built this plane, he was like right, I want to go out and see it and then actually flew it for them.

Sherri L. Smith:

So that's it. Listen and get involved.

Theodore Johnson :

Sounds so much more simple when you put it that way, but I often know some people. You know they're very trepidatious to approach that way, but it sounds like if you approach somebody or a cause with genuine intent and engage in meaningful dialogue and ask them how they can be supported, that sounds like authentic outliership.

Sherri L. Smith:

I will say that there's something there is. These are people that they might have already had contact with. So just going out looking for a cause is probably going to be seen as a savior pose rather than an ally pose. But if you are aware of a community, you are at a table with a community and you know something about them. I think that opens the door a bit more than somebody who's just like today I'm going to go do good things for someone, point me in the right direction. You know that doesn't quite work, but paying attention to what's going on around you will help you find the communities that you might already have contact with that could use that support. And yeah, and then just like have a conversation and see if they want your help Right, that's.

Sherri L. Smith:

Another thing is like Coffee said time and again when we needed help, we asked for it. So who's asking as opposed to who you think looks like they need it? I think that will cut back on confusion. And, lastly, pilots are really brave, crazy people, so I think that they're less afraid to ask for help and to offer it than other communities might be.

Theodore Johnson :

I absolutely agree. I appreciate the two of you kind of outlining what allyship is, what it looks like and how somebody can get involved. I think that may be very beneficial for those listening who want to support causes or get involved and help advance racial equity in this space and others. There's a question I wanted to ask earlier, but I think it may be better posed now, and it's about these aviators or pioneers. We talked about how you all told their story so well and it filled in some gaps for me and my knowledge that I had. Why do you think their story has not been told as completely or even really as frequently as you all have done in your various novels?

Elizabeth Wein :

We kind of don't want to say you know it's the elephant in the room, but it feels like it's because they're Black Time and again right Time and again.

Sherri L. Smith:

Well, it's the majority tells the majority of stories and perpetuates them. And this is I mean you think about it like flying went from being the big craze all around America to being something we complain about. Now we complain about the miracle of being able to hurdle from here to Europe in eight hours, but we complain because the food wasn't good, like you're eating in the sky. 35,000 feet in the sky, it's amazing, it's a miracle. So it's kind of not a surprise that a lot of, I think, aviation pioneers we chose a few, right? Oh, people know Amelia Earhart, you know they've heard of the Wright brothers, and that's enough. And we filled those two slots.

Sherri L. Smith:

So there's no room for any other stories, stories, and that is this sort of idea of reducing things down to a single story, which famously, is dangerous, particularly when you're talking about diversity comes into play, and I think you also had World War II brought back. A lot of men and women of all races were trained to fly because of the war and when they came back the industry was flooded with white men who could fly. So the women and the minorities were shoved aside again. And since that was then the golden age of aviation I mean all the airlines rising up and everything. By the time we reach today, anything that came before is sort of blurry.

Theodore Johnson :

I think that's great context and an excellent answer to the question both parts and I know that Elizabeth talked about, you know, there being the elephant in the room, and I read somewhere recently that said those who feel to address the elephant are bound to be crushed by the weight of it. And as a racial equity and inclusion scholar, you know this is kind of my area, I guess, and I look at research, black student experiences and things like that, and I think you're spot on. I think both of you are spot on. There were a lot of historical things that occurred that kind of caused us to take a Black pioneer, to take a backseat in a story being told, and also the fact that race is a contentious issue. The AI is now in some way weaponized and it's just easier to not talk about it. You all provide a great platform to do so with this book, and it's something that I'm going to do and it's something that OBAP does routinely. So I appreciate you all for giving us another tool to combat inequity.

Elizabeth Wein :

Do you know what I mean? We were put in touch with you by Liz Booker, who was a fan of our fiction novels, and yeah, she's an amazing ally.

Sherri L. Smith:

Something that just occurred to me is that what happens when? So all these white male pilots come back from World War II and they are given all of the positions in aviation, right, all of your commercial pilots are suddenly white men who have war experience. And so what quickly happens is that's most of America's first experience. Flying is commercial flight and there's a white guy at the helm, and so the story no longer becomes were you allowed to fly, or it's? Can you fly? Well, I've never seen a Black pilot, so they must not know how to fly. You know I've never seen a black pilot, so they must not know how to fly. You know I've never seen a female pilot, so I guess that doesn't happen. And then that tells you it can't happen. So I think that's another way that this gets perpetuated and buries the facts.

Elizabeth Wein :

Honestly, the same thing happened to women after World War II. Women in aviation been in aviation, and the sort of little factoid that I love to throw out is that British Airways hired their first woman as a commercial pilot in 1987, which just absolutely blows my mind.

Sherri L. Smith:

So it's a battle. One of the women's Air Force service pilots was flying in their 80s because most of them they came back from the war ended and they had to go back to being mothers and wives, and a few of them became bush pilots in Alaska and then that was it. And so this woman in her 60s, she's flying and a bunch of the guys in the clubhouse at the airfield are like, hey, grandma, you're learning to fly. And she's like, son, I've been flying before. You were gleaming your daddy's eye and they had never heard of the Women's Air Force service pilots. They had no idea, they didn't acknowledge them until the 90s. Yeah, yeah, it's really appalling.

Theodore Johnson :

So Absolutely it is. And the fact that it's so recent I think people often think you know the 80s, 70s, 60s is such a long time ago, that's 50, 60 years. That's still very many people who were around then still living or were born right around then. You know this. It's not yesteryear, uh, still very contemporary, and I think people often they get lost in that and don't realize this how close it actually is.

Theodore Johnson :

I guess, kind of switching on to. To be somewhat of a more lighter note, what do you all hope that readers take away from your book?

Elizabeth Wein :

There's, you know, a bit at the end, where all the different characters in the book talk about how they've inspired people to fly and they've gone out there and told people that if you have a dream, you can achieve it, and I think that you know we would be very much in agreement with many of the things that they say that this is something that can be yours if you want it. You will have to fight for it, but you can do it. And if this isn't what you want, please go fight for something else that you want.

Sherri L. Smith:

Yeah, I think that's. The thing is that ultimately, like, dreams can be achieved, and they can be achieved with other dreamers, so teaming up to make something possible would be amazing. I would be delighted to one day. I always walk by the cockpit when I get on a commercial flight because I am not a pilot, and I look in like who's flying this plane? Who's flying this plane? I lived for the day when it's a Black woman. I have not seen that yet myself and I have seen I think, personally seen maybe one or two women and I think it might be the same woman with long, wavy blonde hair and that's amazing. But I would love to see diversity at the airport, in the plane. I would love for someone to come up to me one day and say I read your book and I got my pilot.

Elizabeth Wein :

And the other thing that you touched on there was the teamwork aspect, and I think that we've teamed up to write this book. Look itself is so much about teamwork and I think, and reaching out to other people to give you a boost and coffee talks about this as well how, like so many people helped them get to where they were, and I think that could be another really good takeaway that you know, if you can't do it alone, get some help.

Sherri L. Smith:

Teamwork and perseverance.

Theodore Johnson :

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And on that similar kind of notion with the teamwork and camaraderie piece, an important element that was kind of underscored throughout the book was the benefit of minority-serving organizations like the Brown Eagle Arrow Club, which provided coffee and his cohort with a social circle, amongst many other things. How can or how should people leverage similar organizations?

Elizabeth Wein :

Well, I mean, you represent one.

Sherri L. Smith:

I mean that's a start right. Finding something. If there are existing organizations out there, yeah, and then starting your own Brown Eagle was a fan club.

Elizabeth Wein :

Yeah, they're just a bunch of like-minded people who loved aviation and wanted to learn more about it and I think people do warm this kind of club. But maybe a takeaway could be you need to go a step further and not just kind of fool around on the internet, but actually go out and do things, possibly incorporate it. You have some backing for it. This stuff. It sounds hard, but if you sit down and think it through and there are a bunch of you working together, it's not impossible.

Sherri L. Smith:

I mean, taking yourself seriously is the first step to anyone else taking you seriously.

Theodore Johnson :

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. They say light many hands makes for light work. I think, yeah, a light lift. I'm going to do a shameless plug and tell people listening. Obap is always looking for more members, so if you need a place to start, please check us out. We are not just for Black aviators or aerospace professionals. You're open to all races, genders, nesteds, et cetera, and our annual conference is coming up August 21st to the 23rd Great way to come, check us out and see what we're about. A personal question I have, or a question I really want to answer. When I was reading the book is about Coffey and Robinson, so these two kind of the leaders of the effort, the main pioneers that were talked about. They were so opposite in a lot of ways, particularly the personality of their leadership and the disposition. So I'm just curious to see what you all think. How did that stark contrast between these two men aid or hinder the progress that was made for the others as they marched towards their goals in aviation and the aerospace industry?

Sherri L. Smith:

friction starts a fire, for better or for worse, and so, tim, for the folks at home.

Elizabeth Wein :

Cornelius Coffey was a very soft-spoken, unpresuming guy, and John C Robinson was he had a ladies' man and a flashy talker and he loved all the attention.

Sherri L. Smith:

And Elizabeth and I. Actually we split the research. So I did Coffee and Janet Harmon Bragg and Elizabeth did Johnny and Willa Brown, and we sort of became Team Coffee versus Team Johnny in our opinions. And we'd read a story and be like, well, whose version is true? And I'd be like, oh, johnny's a liar. Look at him, he's so brash and walking around, always making himself bigger. And she'd be like I don coffee's up too, but he's sneaky, you know. And I think they helped each other at first. Right, they complimented each other. They needed a showboater and they needed a doer, and they had both. But sometimes the doer is too quiet and the showboater is loud. Sometimes the doer is too quiet and the showboater is loud, and I think that was Johnny's downfall.

Elizabeth Wein :

I think that, also for the viewers at home, johnny's downfall, I believe, was very closely connected to the fact that he was the only one of this group to go out to Ethiopia in 1935, when it was invaded by Italy, and fly for the emperor, haile Selassie, as part of his air force there. And there was a lot of back and forth where some of the other aviators, including Coffey, like at the top of the list wanted to go out and help and basically the country was overrun before that ever happened and the US brought in neutrality acts that made it illegal to fight Americans, to go for Americans, to go and fight for a foreign country. So there was all kinds of stuff going on there. When Italy basically occupied Ethiopia, johnny left the country along with Haile Selassie and Johnny came home to Chicago and he was given the hero's welcome to end all heroes' welcomes.

Elizabeth Wein :

Some estimates say that 20,000 people turned out when he came home to Chicago and he was offered a job running a flight school by Tuskegee University, which they haven't started yet, and he was offered an airplane by people would raise a subscription for him. People were. They'd put monuments to him. He was getting speaking engagements all over the country and I think it all went to his head I really it definitely went to his-. He basically was saying he said to Tuskegee well, you're not offering me enough money and, by the way, I want to call your flight school the John C Robinson School of Flight. And he was unrealistic about it. And I think that this was the beginning of the real rift between them, where he became unwilling to compromise and expected more than probably was his due in terms of his experience as a pilot.

Sherri L. Smith:

I would add to that that, Coffey being the quieter of the two, Johnny might have felt that he could get Coffey to do what he wanted. You know.

Elizabeth Wein :

Apparently, coffey worked for him for a little while when he first opened his own flight school, but it didn't seem to have lasted.

Sherri L. Smith:

But ultimately coffee had his own standards and Johnny wasn't playing by the same rules and that broke them apart. And you know, and I do think what you said earlier with with flying, it's what was it was navigate and communicate.

Sherri L. Smith:

Maybe communicate, see, not a pilot, and I don't do the ava part, I'll just navigate but just number one thing is fly the plane hey, we said we were in a plane, but so that I think that is actually part of the thing that came between them is he's off, johnny's off in ethiopia aviating, and coffee couldn't navigate away to him and communication was very difficult between these two countries, especially with impending war. And I will just fill in that blank that a lot of Black aviators were trying to get to Ethiopia because it was the last independent Black nation, so it meant a lot to Black people around the world that it stayed free and standing and so with that backdrop I think that the two friends just couldn't understand each other. Johnny felt betrayed that they hadn't come out. Coffee was frustrated that he couldn't communicate why they couldn't come out. And you know, you come back to a hero's welcome after that. You don't need your friends, you've got the love of billions, you don't need.

Elizabeth Wein :

And he did. After the war, he went back to Ethiopia and lived there till the end of his life, for the next nine years.

Sherri L. Smith:

So that you know he'd found a new group. He'd found a new group that he believed in. So at the end of the day, it still comes back to that community and mutual support.

Theodore Johnson :

Absolutely Well, I appreciate the two of you indulging me in my question and I think the answers you provided are kind of some of the same conclusions I drew. But great admiration and respect for these two men and all the pioneers that you all talked about in your book, and again kudos, and strongly, strongly, strongly commendate the two of you for taking the time to make sure these stories were told, and told the right way. Oh, absolutely, it's my pleasure, and with that I think I will pivot to Dr Clark.

Langston Clark :

All right, everybody, those of you in the audience, you all know how this goes. I'm going to ask a question of our two authors and at this time, if you want, you can type any questions or comments you have in the chat and they will respond, and if not, we'll exit out and I'll talk about what we have coming up in the next episode of Octavio Appetite. And I know that Sherri and Elizabeth Elizabeth especially she's probably ready to go to bed because she's in Scotland right now.

Elizabeth Wein :

It's probably about two o'clock and Dr Johnson you all are welcome to stay, but if you want to leave, that's no problem, as nine years in Ethiopia are a fascinating story in themselves and we actually wanted to go through and tell what had happened in everybody's lives after the breakup of the coffee flight school at the end of World War II, and there just kind of wasn't time or room to do that.

Sherri L. Smith:

So you get kind of like the you know the crawl at the end of the movie that lets you know, like what happened to people. You kind of give you that, but I'm afraid a last chapter would actually be the first chapter of a new book. So it would either be the Johnny in Ethiopia book written by Elizabeth Ween or it might be a book on space Right, as we sort of end with that promise of. You had Guyon Buford, first Black astronaut, and you had Mae Jemison, the first Black female astronaut, and you had the. I mean, if you in the interim there was the first guy who trained to be the first Black astronaut and wasn't allowed to be, and you had the Mercury 13, the women be the first Black astronaut and wasn't allowed to be. And you had the Mercury 13, the women, who trained to be astronauts and were not allowed to be. And I think that those are.

Elizabeth Wein :

And then you have Nichelle Nichols running through the whole thing, running through the whole thing. She was born in Robbins, illinois, while these guys were building their own first airfield there.

Sherri L. Smith:

Courtesy of the mayor of Robbins, her father.

Elizabeth Wein :

The mayor of Robbins was her father and the mayor of Robbins was the guy that they rented the land from to build the airfield on. And then she goes on to become this ambassador for NASA after her wonderful career as Lieutenant O'Hara at Star Trek.

Sherri L. Smith:

And so she is actually the person that, when Mae Jemison was rejected from NASA the first time, she's the one who called her and said apply again. And so like the idea that someone who was a baby when our aviators were getting started helped the first Black female into space and that's the beauty of this story is that, whether you see the shoulders or not, you're standing on them, and that just to carry that into the future, which is why I guess it would be a whole series of books, because who knows what will come next.

Langston Clark :

All right, and it looks like there are no questions in the chat. Sherri L Smith and Elizabeth Ween. Thank you for joining us. Dr Johnson, real quick, I got to ask you this question. So, Sherri and Elizabeth, if y'all got to go, I totally understand, but I got to give Dr Johnson an opportunity to talk a little bit about the Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals real quick. Just give us some more insights, some more details and where the audience can find more about the organization.

Theodore Johnson :

Absolutely so. Organization of Black Aerospace Professionals is a 501c3 nonprofit aimed at increasing the representation of Black Americans, black individuals, in aviation aerospace. However, we're not exclusive to that. We have several programs and services that we provide that help do that, one of those being our ACE Academies, which is a week-long pretty much like a camp in which students can go to and get exposure to different facets of aviation, such as a discovery flight, actual classroom instruction from different aviation professionals.

Theodore Johnson :

We also have our APIS program, which is Airline Professionals in Schools, where an airline professional will come out and come and give a lecture to the students, and these two programs kind of run complimentary to each other, because the APIS program goes through the school year and then ACEs in the summertime. Then we have our conference, you know, which is every year. That allows us to kind of meet and greet one another but also honor those that came before us and those that are still breaking barriers today, and all this information can be filed on OBAPorg. It's our website, you know. We have several other programs I won't get into, but all of this and scholarships, aid in advancing racial equity, diversity and inclusion in aviation aerospace.

Langston Clark :

All right, and I want to thank the three of you for joining us today.

Elizabeth Wein :

Thank you both very much. Thank you so much for having us.

Langston Clark :

Thank you, it's been a pleasure much.

Theodore Johnson :

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Langston Clark :

Thank you for joining this edition of Entrepreneurial Appetite. If you liked the episode, you can support the show by becoming one of our founding 55 patrons, which gives you access to our live discussions and bonus materials, or you can subscribe to the show. Give us five stars and leave a comment.