Entrepreneurial Appetite

A Seat at the C-Suite Table: A Conversation with Chuck Wallington and Jewel Love

• Langston Clark • Season 5 • Episode 42

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Ready to uncover the paths of Black leadership in corporate America? This episode promises a deep dive into   Dr. Chuck Wallington's transformative journeys with special guest host Jewel Love. 

Join our guest host, Jewel Love, as he sits down with Dr. Chuck Wallington, the author of "A Seat at the C-Suite Table: Insights from Leadership Journeys of African Americans." This compelling conversation unravels the unique challenges that Black executives face, dispelling the myth of meritocracy in corporate circles. Through Dr. Wallington's extensive research involving interviews with 30 Black male executives, we gain profound insights into the critical role of networks and connections in career advancement. Discover the necessity of mentorship, coaching, and sponsorship while navigating the complex dynamics of corporate culture.

What does it take to drive systemic change in US corporations? Dr. Wallington emphasizes the collective effort required to address racial disparities, highlighting actionable steps toward inclusivity and representation. Reflecting on his career, he shares personal anecdotes about leading talented teams and fostering a culture of belonging. This episode not only honors the dedication of Black leaders but also underscores the importance of everyone’s involvement in promoting meaningful change. Tune in for an enriching conversation beyond surface-level discussions, offering actionable insights and inspiration for all.

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Langston Clark :

What's up everybody? Before we begin today's episode, I want to let you know that there is still time to contribute to my 40th birthday fundraiser, where my goal is to get 40 new donors and raise $40,000 in support of the From A&T to PhD Endowed Scholarship. To make a donation, you can check the show notes or go directly to wwwlangstonsbirthdayfundraisercom. That's wwwlangstonsbirthdayfundraisercom. Enjoy the upcoming episode.

Langston Clark :

What's up everybody? My name is Dr Langston Clark and I am the founder and organizer of Entrepreneurial Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting Black businesses. And so today we have a very special conversation with Dr Chuck Wallington. He is an executive vice president at Cone Health in North Carolina and author of A Seat at the C-Suite Table Insights from Leadership Journeys of African Americans, and I also have to mention that he's a fellow Aggie. So Aggie pride, aggie pride, my brother. And what's particularly special about this is that, chuck, I don't know if I made you aware of this, but I have a community of Aggies, from A&T to PAC. We got a group meet and we just we type in there, share information opportunities, things like that. But what I'm most proud of with that group three of us, in particular myself, dr Brittany Patrick. Proud of with that group three of us in particular myself, dr Brittany Patrick, future Dr Brittany Patrick and Dr Terrell Norton is that we have started an endowment called the From A&T to PhD Endowed Scholarship, which is in the college that you and I both graduated from the College of Education, and our goal there is to support people who are in getting their graduate degrees in that college, and so our hope is that when that endowment reaches maturity, that folks who are in the same program that you graduated from can benefit. Folks who are going to be teachers and wanting to get their master's degree and hone and advance their skills in that area can benefit from that as well. So I thank you for being a part of this conversation and those of you who support us on Patreon those of you who support us on Patreon, those of you who support us by coming live to the live discussions through Eventbrite 10% of whatever comes to support the podcast I give back to that endowment.

Langston Clark :

So I also have to introduce our very special guest host, jewel Love, who reached out to me like two or three years ago on LinkedIn as I was promoting an event that I was curating for Black men here in the community that I live in in San Antonio and we've been following each other ever since, and he's been growing his following on LinkedIn and building community with brothers throughout the country and supporting them. And Jewel is the founder and CEO of Black Executive Men and the author of Born Driven, the executive blueprint for Black men in corporate America. He is a coach, a career coach, he is a counselor and he's a community builder for Black men who are looking to advance themselves and others in corporate America. So I figured he would be the perfect person to drive and steer this conversation, and so I'm going to let him take over. I'm going to fade to the back and fellas. If there's anything you want to add to your biographies, by all means go ahead and do so. I thank you both for being here.

Jewel Love:

Thank you for setting the stage, of course, for us to have this amazing conversation, and when I say amazing, I do mean that For guys and gentlemen like myself and like Chuck, this particular topic is, my guess, something that we spend quite a bit of our time focused on and sharing with the world as well. And Chuck has done just that with your book at the C-Suite Table Insights from the Leadership Journeys of African American Executives, and it is phenomenal. If you haven't got it, you got to get it. It's just one of those books that it can be a little harder to get this information from these guys, because they're so elite and they're so even though they're leaders in our community. At times you would be surprised on how tucked away they are due to their responsibilities, family life and et cetera. But you don't have to worry about that, because he went and did all the work. He did the work for you, he got the perspectives. He put it in his book. It's phenomenal. So definitely, definitely, definitely.

Jewel Love:

Listen to this podcast for sure, and then get the book. If you haven't got it already. Chuck, do you mind if I present some questions to you, kind of based on the book and kind of around the book. That could maybe highlight some of the themes Not at all Feel free and I'm happy to be here with you, jewel.

Chuck Wallington:

I'm a huge fan of yours. I follow you on LinkedIn, so I think it's incredible that we get to spend some time together this evening. So thank you, I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Jewel Love:

Awesome, Awesome Folks. I got to ask this question before we get into it actual content. I think it's probably a little bit important, very important on inspiration, the inspiration question of what inspired you to write, out of all books, all topics, all segments of our community, this book on this segment of our community.

Chuck Wallington:

So there were two things that inspired me, and I'll be very honest about both. The first was I needed a topic for my dissertation research. When I enrolled in the program, one of the first things that you're told and, by the way, my PhD is in leadership studies and so when I enrolled in the program, one of the first questions I was asked was well, what do you think you will do your dissertation research on? And I said I think I'd love to understand more about the experiences of black male C-suite executives. And so I came into the program with that as a topic, and over time I just kept mulling it around and kept thinking about it, and then I was fairly certain that that's the topic that I wanted to research. And the other reason is I have a journey as well, being blessed to be a black C-suite executive. I was really curious about whether my journey in any way paralleled any of the other journeys of people that I would come in contact with, because I had not met a lot of C-suite executives up to the point of doing the research. And so what's fascinating for me is that, yes, there are lots of parallels between the journeys of the 30 black men whom I ended up meeting and interviewing and my own journey. So that's what prompted me to do the research.

Chuck Wallington:

Funny thing I was wrapping up my dissertation and about to defend it and one of my committee members said, chuck, you have a book in this research Jewel. I looked at her and I said, with all due respect, all I want to do is defend and graduate. Here's the last thing on my mind, right? But that too kind of stuck in my head and I was like, hmm, a book? I knew I wanted to publish the research and I thought I would publish it in scholarly journals.

Chuck Wallington:

It just never occurred to me to write a book. But she said, chuck, this research is so powerful that if you put it in a scholarly journal, other academics will read it and that's great. But what about making it available for the academic community as well as the broader market? And there we go. That's what really inspired me to take the research after I defended and graduated, work with an editor and then a publisher and get the from them and, frankly, for folks who don't look like us to read the book and really become aware of how our career trajectory and our experiences can be very different from folks who don't look like us.

Jewel Love:

That's what inspired me to write the book Absolutely, and so I think this conversation can be for both audiences as well. Is that okay? Absolutely.

Chuck Wallington:

It is. It is certainly for both audiences. It's for folks who look like us. Equally as important it's for folks who don't look like us, because if you don't know what you don't know, that's one thing, but if you read the book and are now aware, you get to be a part of the solution. And that's what I'm really trying to strive for to get more people rallied around the solution and understanding that if there was going to be a change, it can't just happen with black men who are raising their hands and saying why am I being treated differently? It has to happen from everybody. So this is absolutely an inclusive conversation for everybody.

Jewel Love:

Awesome and folks, we're going to get into that piece. Why am I being treated differently? Trust me, this train is going right there, but to even still build some foundation around it, just kind of put some of those building blocks underneath it in a conversation, is just pretty much meant for everybody at this seat, at the table of this to this conversation, if you will, is who are these guys? Guys, where did they go to school? Where did they come? What is their background? Who are these guys? And I'll just perhaps just say a little bit more is that some folks don't even know black male executives exist, and I'll put my hand up first. I grew up in a very humble scenario. My uncle was not going to leave here at Google. It just it didn't quite go that way, and so when I started learning about these brothers, my mind was blown. So can you share with us? Who are these guys?

Chuck Wallington:

Yeah. So I'll tell you. When I started the research, I knew maybe five of the 30 whom I ended up interviewing. So I started with the five that I knew and I said so. Here's the deal. This is the topic that I'm trying to pursue. You meet the criteria and there were some very specific guidelines I was looking for. You had to be no more that you had to identify as a black male, you had to currently be working and you could be no more than two levels below the CEO in your organization. So those were the criteria by which I was identifying folks to participate. So I knew maybe five folks who fit the bill and I reached out to them and to a person. They all said, yes, I will participate. Here's what's interesting.

Chuck Wallington:

I would then ask those five whom I interviewed do you know of at least one person you could refer me to? Some did and some didn't. To not be too academic, that's called snowball sampling. That was my methodology, which was to say, hey, can you refer me to someone else who can then refer me to someone else? So that was the way that I got to my 30. I also will give a shout out to the women that I know in my life who just said, yeah, I'm married to someone who meets the bill, or I work with someone, or I know someone who knows someone. So I am very thankful to the women who said, yes, I will help you with this. And so it's through that methodology that I got to the 30 black men. Here's what's interesting about them. So they represent 12 different industries, and those industries include automobile manufacturing, aerospace, defense, law, healthcare, financial services, education, hospitality, advertising, marketing, digital communications, commercial real estate and human services, and the average age was 54. So if you look at all 30, if you average their ages at the time I did the interview, they were 54 years old, so these weren't necessarily young men. These were men who had been in their careers for a while, and so we're certainly very seasoned at what they're doing. And I reached out to them and, thankfully, they said yes. Here's what's interesting.

Chuck Wallington:

At the end of the conversations, though Remember my role was to collect the data I had a series of questions that I asked each and every one. My job was to ask the questions and keep silent and let them talk, because I didn't want to taint the data, but at the end of just about every conversation, jewel, I would turn off the recorder and I would say man, it was all I could do to keep quiet during that conversation because you were talking about this experience and I had the same thing or tell me more about that experience. So there was a bit of a bonding that occurred at the end of these conversations with each of these 30 men, and I still had to make sure that I kept myself out of it so that when I actually gathered the data to write the book, it was truly their stories and not my story. This was about them and their stories. So that's about these men.

Chuck Wallington:

Everyone has at least a bachelor's degree, several of them have master's degrees and a couple even have terminal degrees. So a very well-educated group of African-American men who are making things happen.

Jewel Love:

I love it. Folks, so even just folks that are listening, that are even questioning can I reach the top? The answer is yes. Some of the rules are talked about in this book and even talking about that, there are, which I think, a lot of us in the community, if you will, are pretty aware of that being the case. But this really is an inclusive dialogue and even that framework of rules in corporate one of them that was fairly surprising to me and this might relate to everybody, but it was one around merit, meritocracy, and that doing a good job is enough to get you to reach the top.

Jewel Love:

And what I've noticed is it's definitely is enough to get you to reach the top. And what I've noticed is it's definitely I'd say definitely good enough, if you will, to reach mid-level management, and then networks and connections and knowing people become hugely important to get to the senior levels. But see, this is just one of the corporate rules, and then we have rules that kind of apply to us or that we kind of play by, that are even unique to our community. So, chuck, I'm just curious about that piece of the puzzle. This is the kind of like the hidden rules to success for us. What were some of those rules that they maybe talked about, or even alluded to, that we have to play by in order to win, for better or for worse, in order to reach the top? Can you share a bit about what they said about?

Chuck Wallington:

that I am, but I'm going to give you some context. That also came from my research and it's also in the book. So you have to think about the founding of US businesses, right? So corporations in the United States. So part of my research unearthed this and I guess I always knew it, but it was an aha moment when I was doing my research. If you think about most businesses in the United States, they were founded by white men for the success of white men. So when they were establishing businesses, they created rules, regulations, guidelines that would work for white men, and when women and men of color came into the organization, we were like well, what do we do here? Because success has been defined by white men in terms of what it looks like for other white men. So that's the context that all of us who are working in US corporations today pretty much find ourselves. We're in organizational structures that weren't necessarily created for our success and they're things that we have to do along the way to figure out how to be successful. So that's kind of the backdrop for all this in terms of understanding that the structures that we work in today primarily were not created by us, nor are they for our success, and it doesn't mean that we can't be successful. There are just certain things that you have to understand how to navigate. So that's the context for the conversation.

Chuck Wallington:

But, specifically to answer your question the men talked about. One of the things I asked about was so what was your journey to the C-suite like? And their answers were amazing. Some said rewarding, some said challenging, some said they're double standard, some said there are no rules for people of color. You got to go figure it out. It was fascinating to listen to them kind of talk about that, as they laid the foundation for their own experiences. And to a person they said but I figured it out. Some had an easier time of figuring it out than others did, but they all figured it out, because they would not have been successful had they not figured it out. So those are part of the dynamics that people of color had to deal with. With these 30 men, I would offer it certainly still there, and all of us who are working in US corporations have to figure out well, how do I deal with this? How do I make this work for me?

Jewel Love:

Wow. I mean wow. There's the immediate thought that comes to mind in. That is what? Because, folks, I think it's probably going to be helpful to talk openly about this topic. Some guys burn out, some guys' mental health conflicts become too powerful and they need to pivot out. Some guys look up and they see what's up there and they say not for me, not me, not for me or not me, and maybe they'll stay at mid-level management. But there's something about these guys. What do you think meant, I mean, you spent so much time, what did you observe if you can share, if that's appropriate that you observe from them and about them a quality even that helped them move through the challenges, make their way through conflicts, make the connections that are pretty much required to reach the top for the most part. What was it about them qualitatively? You think that kind of set them apart and enabled for them to reach this very elite status Generally speaking, I would say their drive and their determination.

Chuck Wallington:

And again, if you read their stories, they will all tell you that they were driven to achieve. They were driven to not be set aside because other people said they couldn't do it, because other people put barriers or challenges in their way. They were goal-oriented and they were very, very focused. They weren't our men of grit, they were just determined that they were very, very focused. They weren't our men of grit, they were just determined that they were going to do it. If you delve more deeply into their stories, there's interesting conversation in the book Jewel about those who had mentors along the way and those who did not have mentors along the way, and by far and away. Those who had mentors would quickly tell you and my journey has been a lot easier because I've had a mentor or coach. And for those who did not, they will say, in spite of not having a mentor or coach, I figured it out, I was able to make it to the top in spite of not really having someone.

Chuck Wallington:

But to a person, they would all tell you that mentors and mentorship are very, very important and those who have them should consider themselves blessed. And for those who don't, you can still be successful in spite of that. So for our folks who are listening, I would share with them if you don't have a mentor, please do all that you can to find a mentor, and the mentor doesn't necessarily have to look like you. The mentor has to be someone who is invested in you and your career for the long haul right. And if you find someone like that it doesn't matter if they're male or female, black or white. If they're invested in you and can help you advance your career goals in concert with your personal goals, then you're good. So we'll share that with our audience as we're having this conversation.

Jewel Love:

I mean to kind of piggyback on that. So your book had talked about mentors, sponsors, piggyback on that. So your book had talked about mentors, sponsors, coaches, allies and some of my guests most people listening to this are going to know the differences, but it never hurts to get a reminder and a refresher. What were the guys saying were the differences between mentors, coaches, allies, sponsors?

Chuck Wallington:

So I'll tell you what the literature says on it and then we'll talk about what some of the executives said.

Chuck Wallington:

So the literature would offer that the mentor is what I just said, someone who can kind of give you that advice for the long haul, and they're good to have in your life. Coaches are folks who don't necessarily have to be in your life for the long haul. They're in your life for some period of time and they're helping you typically hone in on one or two or a handful of things that you need some additional assistance with. So a coach might help you with public speaking, or a coach might be one to help you determine how to navigate the room read the room, if you will. Or a coach may be someone to help you brush up on your business acumen if you need that. So a coach kind of serves a very specific role, particularly in the leadership space and the skill building space. Allies and sponsors are fascinating. So allies are the folks who are going to speak up, and sponsors are the same way. They're going to speak up about you in a positive way when you're not in the room, when there's conversation about the next promotion at the law firm, when there's conversation about lateral career advancement opportunities in the corporate public relations arena or whatever. It's the executive in the room or the leader in the room who will speak up and say let me tell you about Jewel. He is good at what he does. He has great leadership skills, love his business acumen. People love working with him on teams. He's ready for this new role. That's what the ally and the sponsor will do on your behalf. So those are. And the allies and the sponsors typically have to be within the organization where you work right. So it's hard to sponsor someone or be an ally for someone if you don't work there at the organization. You can be an ally but you can't really be a sponsor. The sponsor really has to be someone who's in that organization. Decisions are being made and he or she can influence that. So that's the difference in those four.

Chuck Wallington:

And again to a person. Folks talked about those. One guy talked about one of his first jobs out of graduate school was with a newspaper chain and he talked about having the publisher or the editor I don't remember which one who reached out to him and said once a quarter, we're going to lunch. I want to hear from you about what's going right and what's going wrong. I'm going to take you around so that you can meet people who are key players in this community, so that when you call, they know who you are and they will take your call. How cool is that? I mean, what must that be like? Right To have someone who says I'm going to be that invested in you that I'm going to open doors for you, just like they were open for him as a white executive. So that was one person's experience.

Chuck Wallington:

On the other hand, another executive said I can't buy a mentor. I've been looking for one all my career. I'd love to have one and I can't find one. Yet he has still been successful in spite of not having a mentor along the way. So again, the point of that whole mentorship piece is it's huge. It is huge and it's important, but it doesn't mean that you won't be successful if you don't have a mentor. You cannot be successful if you don't have a sponsor and an ally. That's just not going to happen, because decisions are made all the time about who's going to join the organization, who's going to join the team, who's going to be promoted. Those conversations only happen in your favor if someone is speaking up on your behalf. You can be successful without a coach and without a mentor. It is hard to be successful without a sponsor and ally.

Jewel Love:

I'm so, so happy that you're speaking on these what I would put into the bucket of the hidden rules of success. These are things that may or may not be taught in college, or even grad school, for that matter. There is a certain level of corporate education that's just going to happen on the job, in the field. However, let's say that your parents worked in corporate and they'd figured that out and they can share that with you earlier on. I mean, how many years could that save, how much frustration could that save and just shave off of your life in terms of the years of a learning curve. So being able to have these conversations here and now are so important for our community, because many of us not all of us, for sure, but enough of us are kind of first generation corporate, if you will. And so we're in there, going gung ho to reach the top, and things look pretty clear, like, okay, I just got to do this and I'll get here, and then two years I'm here, and then here and here without knowing there's a whole culture and some of those cultural pieces will not be revealed until you get higher up and then you learn the rules of that level of seniority. But if you know the stuff that Chuck is talking about, even beginning your career, let alone mid-level management, things like that it can be so much smoother, which is why this information is so important for us to have.

Jewel Love:

And with that said, I think there's probably an elephant in the room, if you will, about race racism. What role does that play? Did it play for these guys? And I can just tell you from a very brief story there was a brother who had retired from corporate, very successful career and I was working as a therapist working as a coach now, but working as a therapist at the time and he had physical symptoms because of the stress that he'd carried in his body for decades going and he wasn't so aware of all the therapeutic outlets and resources. So he just muscled through for decades and by the time he saw me, unfortunately, we were able to help him out with quite a few things, but it took a physical toll related to race and racism, and I know that's not everyone's experience. There truly is a spectrum and so I'm curious what were some of the stories and some of the feedback that the guys had in terms of race racism success if it prevented them, if it didn't prevent them, very curious.

Chuck Wallington:

Yeah. So I am going to read you something from the experiences of one of the men, but I will tell you that one of the questions I asked all 30 was what's the one thing that you would like to have less of in your career journey? And one of the themes that emerged from that is they'd love to have less racism, conscious and unconscious bias. And to a person they all said this is something that I've experienced almost since the beginning of my career and because we're people of color and because of human beings, you learn how to cope. And again, I'm not a medical doctor. I can't talk about the impact to you physically, but again, I just know from my own experiences that at some point it catches up with you. At some point you have to say I'm not dealing with that anymore, that's on you, I'm not dealing with that anymore. So yeah, I mean it is certainly there. Let me read to you Mac, who's one of the executives, said he said he also felt that he wanted to handle various personal situations differently with his leader. He says I can remember being sick as a dog, but I went to work because I didn't want to be out sick on a Friday or a Monday. I didn't want the perception to be that I was just looking for a long weekend. I also didn't want to feel like I decided I wanted to grow a beard or a mustache, that I would be frowned upon because some people see that as being inappropriate in a work environment. I want to be able to know that me having a beard isn't a big deal. There's a lot in there, right? This brother talks about being physically ill and getting up and going to work because he just happened to get physically ill on a Friday or a Monday and didn't want the story to be well, you know, because he's black, he's just chilling. Right, he didn't want to come to work because he wanted a long weekend or having to have the conversation about do I grow the beard or grow the mustache or not.

Chuck Wallington:

Again, it goes back to what I said. There are different rules, right? So our counterparts can do these things and very few people raise their eyebrows and see a problem. Oftentimes, when we do it, we have to have that conversation with ourselves. We have to go through those mental and emotional gyrations and say is this okay? Is someone going to care? Do I care if someone cares? That's a lot, that's a lot and that certainly has a toll. And that certainly has a toll. But that's just one. That's one executive's example of kind of the psychology, what happens when this gets to you in your own psyche.

Jewel Love:

Absolutely. I think, a couple of things just kind of to tackle. And then, definitely, this next question is something that I was sitting with, looking forward to speak with you about, and I remember reading that passage in the book as well with you about. And I remember reading that passage in the book as well and I was like, wow, this is when we talk about working twice as hard for half as much.

Jewel Love:

So there may there can be the actual work, but then there's the psychological internal work that's going on nonstop behind the scenes in the office and outside of just living life. That's unpaid work and it takes a toll. It can, anyway, it can truly take a toll. And one of the most challenging things about it well, I don't know if it is the most challenging, but a challenging thing about it is even being at work and not having somebody at your seniority level or superior that may be familiar with the experience or at least a level of compassionate to learn and understand it, to, on that very human level, feel seen, heard and understood, even if it's not changed, just to be, on some level, believed. That that's the experience that we're having.

Jewel Love:

Slash these gentlemen might be having, or definitely having. That may be a resource they may have been lacking as well. That can contribute to that buildup of ongoing stress. If you'd like to kind of touch on that, of course, we'd love to hear your thoughts on that, in addition to this question about the DEI world, if you will, today, and how, even politically, just how it kind of waxes and wanes in terms of support. And something I think you talked about even from the very beginning of this conversation is it's about solutions as much as it is about identifying the problem, and they're both critically important, and so I'm also curious about what was mentioned, what was said about we have these challenges. We also have these brothers that are very successful, but still there's room for solutions, and I'm curious what they mentioned in that light as well.

Chuck Wallington:

So, in terms of solutions, there's the consensus that all 30 are committed to being a part the table in their own respective organizations where they're challenging the status quo and saying, no, we're not going to operate like that because there's a different world out there and we're going to be a part of that different world and everything in between. So these 30 men are certainly being a part of the solution and there is consensus that 30 men will make a difference. 300 will make an even bigger difference. 3,000 people black, white, name, your nationality, ethnicity working together will make an even huge, bigger difference. So there's the understanding that these 30 men are doing some great stuff, but there's the rallying cry for everyone. You know and I talk in the book about how change is really a team sport. So there's a role for everyone in understanding and bringing about change and offer seven steps for the reader who may be reading the book and saying, well, gee, I just don't know where to start. Well, there are seven steps that we offer in the book that say, hey, if you don't know where to start, consider here which is first, is you know to ask the question what am I doing? And if you are doing some stuff, what are you doing and how effective is it? And if you're not doing something, why aren't you? And you have someone who wakes up every day, who thinks about this work and is helping you create your plan. So I offer in the book seven steps for folks to think about. But the whole premise, though, jewel, is this has to be a team effort.

Chuck Wallington:

If the current state of US corporations is going to change, then it has to happen. One meaningful conversation at a time. One meaningful, deliberate, tangible action, ata time that will bring about the change. So that's what has to happen. So these 30 men are catalysts and they're the ones who are saying don't leave us out here hanging. Help us, because we need it and society needs it. Black men are woefully underrepresented in US corporations. Woefully underrepresented. We're literally the ones who were last hired. We're the first ones out of the door. We make far less money than our white counterparts. If there are any sacrifices to be made, it is oftentimes made at the expense of folks who look like you and me. So it's tough, and it doesn't have to be that way. If we collectively work together as human beings, we can bring about the change.

Jewel Love:

I think your book does a couple of things at the same time. I liked quite a few things, frankly, but it does create a platform to talk about some of the challenges that they're experiencing, but overall being the message of hope and how we can become action focused and even highlight, frankly, how these guys in particular, they're already action focused. Chuck, I gotta say that in reading a lot of material on LinkedIn, there's quite a bit of talk and discussion about brothers in the C-suite Maybe, I don't know, not being as connected or not caring as much about the greater community, or those in junior levels of leadership and maybe on the front lines and things of that nature. And I just got to tell you from working with them I don't work with them exclusively, but from the guys I work with, they're some of the most impact driven guys that I come across in terms of their volunteering, in terms of being mentors and sponsors, being a leader or C-level representative at the Black ERG or even other employee resource groups. They're very hugely giving and yet sometimes they're a part of so many things that they're not necessarily out there at every public event or able to help everybody that needs their help.

Jewel Love:

And I think if there was more of them, we could just have more access to the top as well. So I think that's just a perspective in terms of give back, and it sounds like these guys what you've come across is tapped into. They want to make a change and they're not only just thinking about it and talking about it. They're actually some of the biggest proponents for taking action and leading the charge in making a difference. Is that what you discovered as well?

Chuck Wallington:

I did. They definitely are. They're doing some amazing things as individuals and as a collective. And again I go back to this point. There are 30 powerful Black men and what about everybody else? Let's say they're maxed out and they're doing the absolute best they can. What about the next group of 30, and the next group of 30, and the next group of 30, and so on, and so on, and so on.

Chuck Wallington:

And I will go to my grave saying this change will not happen if it's only black people lobbying for black people. Change will happen if everybody recognizes that we're stronger as a country, we're stronger as a society. Our businesses are stronger because they're inclusive businesses. They're businesses that reflect the communities in which we live and work and are privileged to serve in. That's where the true change occurs, when everyone believes in that and everyone is focused on that. And for everyone, that is a priority Because at the end of the day, we still own and run very few organizations as people of color. So if change is going to occur, it has to occur because everyone believes that this is important in everyone's rally.

Langston Clark :

That's okay because, chuck, I don't want to gloss over the fact that you are Dr Wallington, phd, and I'm wondering if you could share with us, in the context of someone who has made it to the C-suite, what has your from A&T to PhD journey been like, because we oftentimes see C-suite executives getting the executive MBA or something like that. Well, what was the decision for you to get your PhD to put you in a position to write this book, like my story is?

Chuck Wallington:

interesting. So I didn't return to school to get my master's degree until I was in my early 50s, so I'm going to tell you my age as I tell the story. So I was having this milestone birthday and I had always wanted to return to school to get my master's degree and my wife said you're either going to do it or you're going to stop talking about it. Choice is yours and I support you either way. I was like, okay. So I enrolled in a master's program at Syracuse University. It was a program I'd been looking at for 20 years and it offered me the flexibility of keeping my day job still enrolling, going to campus at Syracuse at the beginning of every semester for an immersion and then coming back and having online classes every week. So it was the closest I could simulate to a full-time master's experience without quitting my job. So I did that and had a wonderful experience. About halfway through it, the good Lord revealed to me that I was supposed to pursue the PhD. And again, circumstances were the same. I wasn't willing to walk away from my day job and I wanted to pursue the PhD. Lo and behold, our alma mater has had this PhD program in leadership studies for the better part of 20 years. So I ended up applying and got accepted, and the rest, as they say, is history. So I earned my let me get my math right I earned my master's when I was 55. And I was 59 when I earned my PhD and I'm 62 now.

Chuck Wallington:

So in the last several years I have been, I've spent the bulk of the time working on this book and getting it out into the marketplace. But what am I going to do with that PhD? The good Lord is still showing me exactly what he wants, but what it's doing. Now Langston is giving me the ability to have this conversation and to talk about a book that I've written about the experiences of Black men. It also continues to give me the opportunity to go into the classroom as a guest lecturer. I enjoy doing that. I enjoy influencing and shaping the minds of people who look like you and me and, frankly, people who don't but are interested in the work that I've done, the research that I've done, and I get to share with them. So those are some of the immediate things that I've been doing since earning the PhD, but I remain very, very open to whatever the good Lord has in store for me with the degree, so I enjoy what I'm doing now.

Langston Clark :

My job at Cone Health is incredibly exciting and very rewarding, and there are other things that I would like and I want to speak to something that you all mentioned before we get to Michael's question.

Langston Clark :

I don't want to call it a burden, but the responsibility that a lot of brothers have in terms of mentoring and sponsoring other Black men in particular.

Langston Clark :

And I have a very unique experience in my doctoral program at the University of Texas, at Austin, where the former chief diversity officer and a few other Black faculty members there were really connected, not only academically but with the brothers who were working in corporate and in medicine and all these other jobs that, as Kevin Samuels would say, high value men occupy. Right, and they did a really good job of bridging the gap between the graduate students and the undergraduate students who were black males on campus, with those brothers in the city of Austin who were doing really amazing things in a city that, like I think, is really white folks, atlanta, right, despite the fact that this is not Atlanta, it's not Charlotte, it's not Greensboro. These brothers were navigating and putting themselves in positions that have impact and so, even though it doesn't always seem like they're doing that work, it's hard work and there's not that many of them to do it, but there are examples that exist. And so, michael, your question is aside from becoming a published author, chuck, what career accomplishments are you most proud of?

Chuck Wallington:

I am most proud of the people who I've had the privilege of leading over the course of my career. The people whom I've had the privilege of leading over the course of my career, particularly my last 13 years at Cone Health. I have had the honor of leading some incredibly talented people and I am most proud of how they've advanced their own careers for themselves. Seven or eight of them have returned to school to earn their master's degrees while working as a part of the team that I'm privileged to lead.

Chuck Wallington:

I was not the first one. I actually followed one of my colleagues. I watched him work full time and pursue his master's degree and I would ask him what's that like? And he was actually the one who inspired me. So after he finished his master's degree, it was about the time that I was having this conversation with my wife.

Chuck Wallington:

So when I started pursuing mine, I was very open with my team and I was like here's what I'm going to do and I'm going to finish this program, and you're not going to know that I'm in school, because I'm going to hear I'm here and I'm present and when I'm away being a student, I'm away being a student, but you as a team will not suffer. So they watched me and they watched the support that I got from my boss and my colleagues, and a total of seven of them have returned over time to earn their master's degree. And in fact, I was just celebrating with one of my team members today. We were having a skip level conversation. She graduated two weeks ago from the University of North Carolina with her master's degree, so I am most proud of the impact that I've provided for them. That's allowed them to maintain their full-time jobs, nail it with their full-time jobs and return to graduate school and earn master's degrees from some very, very tough graduate school programs.

Langston Clark :

So I am most proud of that, and what I'll do is Yolanda has this comment, and so I'll leave it to both you and Jewel to respond. And Yolanda is asking, or she is stating, it is important to have a culture of belonging, that all backgrounds can get a seat at the table and feel heard, seen and recognized for their contributions. Do you all have any comments that you all would like to add to that?

Chuck Wallington:

I completely agree. Yes, so while this research was about the experiences of Black men, there are lots of underrepresented folks whose stories and experiences are likely similar to these Black men. And yes, I am all about things being inclusive. As I said with Jewel and I were talking, that's where the true change occurs when the world that we live in reflects the people who live in the world from a leadership perspective, when the companies that we live in reflects the people who live in the world from a leadership perspective, when the companies that we work for reflect the people who work for the company and the folks who buy the products and services, that's true success. So I could not agree with her more. Jewel, what do you have to add to that? Nothing.

Jewel Love:

Yeah, I nailed it, Chuck. Just a plus one to what Chuck said Awesome.

Langston Clark :

Because we have Roots as a book club. Chuck, I want to ask this final question If there was one more chapter of the book, one more section of the book that you could have put into it, reflecting back, what would that chapter or section be about?

Chuck Wallington:

I would have written more about my own story. I talk about what inspired me on the front end and I do some of it on the back end, but I have a story as well and I would have taken the time to write my story and include my story in the book. So if there is anything else that I write about, it likely will be my own.

Langston Clark :

All right, jewel, chuck, thank you both for joining us here this evening. As I stated, I don't think we had actually started the official recording yet, but my hope is that one day we can flip flop this conversation and we have Chuck interview Jewel about his book. So we'll look forward to having that conversation next season. Thanks for having me Appreciate it.

Jewel Love:

Thank you all so much. Have a good night.

Langston Clark :

Thank you for joining this edition of Entrepreneurial Appetite. If you liked the episode, you can support the show by becoming one of our founding 55 patrons, which gives you access to our live discussions and bonus materials, or you can subscribe to the show. Give us five stars and leave a comment.