Entrepreneurial Appetite
Entrepreneurial Appetite
The Power of HBCUs: A Conversation with Dr. Marybeth Gasman and Levon T. Esters
What if you could wear "racial battle armor" to better navigate societal challenges? Join us for an enlightening episode with Dr. Langston Clark as we explore the powerful role Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) play in shaping resilient, successful individuals. Dr. Clark shares the inspiring story behind the From A&T to PhD Endowed Scholarship at North Carolina A&T State University and discusses the increased financial commitment to the scholarship in June and July. We'll hear from alumni and authors, capturing the essence of HBCUs' impact through personal testimonials and in-depth conversations.
We dive into the nurturing environments of HBCUs like Florida A&M University and North Carolina A&T State University, where students gain invaluable mentorship and develop critical skills in research, statistics, and data analysis. Drs. Marybeth Gassman and Levon T. Esters join us to discuss her journey in supporting HBCUs through the MSI Elevate program and her pivotal role as a mentor and advocate for minority-serving institutions. Together, we explore the generational legacy of HBCU attendance and the profound impact of these institutions on personal and professional growth.
We also highlight the broader community impacts of HBCUs as anchor institutions, focusing on their roles in economic development, community support, and educational outreach. From agriculture and extension systems to the vital philanthropy efforts led by figures like Mackenzie Scott, HBCUs are making a lasting difference. Finally, we turn our attention to the future, emphasizing the rise of Black women in leadership roles within HBCUs and the importance of continued support and equity-driven initiatives. Tune in for an inspiring exploration of the lasting influence of HBCUs and the collective efforts needed to sustain their legacy.
Support The From A&T to PhD Endowed Scholarship
What's up everybody. Once again, this is Dr Langston Clark, a founder, organizer, entrepreneur appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting black businesses. Thank you with the From A&T to PhD endowed scholarship of North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, an endowment that I co-founded to support teachers and educators who are on their journeys to get graduate degrees. For those of you who have joined our live discussions, you know that typically, 10% of the profits from the podcast go to support this endowment. However, for the months of June and July, I am thrilled to announce that 100% of the profits will be dedicated to the From A&T to PhD Endowed Scholarship. If you are inspired to support this cause, a link to contribute to the endowment can be found in the show notes. We're asking listeners to generously support the From A&T to PhD Endowed Scholarship to help more educators increase their education so they can better support the students in our community. This special series will feature testimonials from A&T alumni who have gone on to earn their PhDs, sharing their journeys and the impact of their education on their lives and current. It will also feature some new episodes from authors who have written books about HBCUs and a few throwback episodes. Alright, everybody. As you all know, my name is Winston Clark. I'm a founder of Entrepreneur Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting Black businesses. When I think about Black businesses, I think about that in an expansive way, so really, what I mean with black institutions. It's appropriate that for this report of Montreal Appetite, that we have partnered with fellow Aggies, fellow HBCU-led owners who have started their own endowments and their own efforts to support our beloved alma mater, our historically black college, north Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University.
Speaker 1:We're going to get into today's conversation with Dr Mary Beth Gassman and Dr LaVon T Estes, and so I want to start off by making you more aware of the relationship that I have with Mary Beth.
Speaker 1:And so, before we got started, I was talking about how, my first year as a faculty member at the University of Texas at San Antonio, I came across a post on social media about this opportunity at the University of Pennsylvania called MSI Elevate, and so this was a fellowship opportunity, for I think it was like four or five days at Penn and Mary Beth got a group of what was this like?
Speaker 1:10, 12 of us up there from different minority serving institutions HBCUs, anapisis, tribal colleges, hispanic serving institutions, and really gave us some foundational support, some encouragement and some strategies to be successful in the positions that we were in at minority serving institutions, who oftentimes find themselves not as funded as our predominantly white institutions or historically white institutions, and so Mary Beth has been a strong advocate and mentor for folks who have gone to HBCUs and other institutions that serve minorities, folks of color, and so that's my background with her and she has been someone that I could like email. Like Mary Beth, I need to talk to you and she will carve out 30 minutes to give me some advice, some encouragement, and I appreciate that and I appreciate you being here today.
Speaker 2:I'm so proud of you. I remember you when.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I would say that, in addition to like Mary Beth's mentorship and the space that she creates to elevate folks who are affiliated with minority serving institutions, she also has a way of connecting people, and in some ways I would not have the opportunity to be connected with LaVon T Estes, who is the Dean of the Graduate School at Penn State but also is an Aggie and a FAMU Rattler, because I wouldn't know who he was if they hadn't wrote this book. And so we're going to start off, because we have Origins as a book club we're going to start off autobiographically. So, mary Beth, I'm going to ask you to start off by telling us what your background is, how you got involved with supporting historically Black colleges and some other minority-serving institutions. And then LaVon, I'm going to ask you to start telling us a little bit about the book, because your story about going from FAMU to A&T to PhD is a big part of the beginning of the book. So, mary Beth, if you will get us started, Sure.
Speaker 2:Well, first of all it's really great to be here with you and, as I said, I'm always excited about all the things that you're doing and just you know your success is wonderful to see. So, and I did want to say for people who are listening, we are about to enter into our 10th year of Elevate and so if anybody's interested, put your name in the chat. If you are a early career faculty member, we love supporting early career faculty. It's free, wonderful program and we even cover the hotel and all the meals and so just in case you're interested. So I think at first glance sometimes people are a little shocked that I do research related to HBCUs. So I'll just kind of tell you a little bit of background. I really didn't learn that much about HBCUs until about 1994. And part of that is that I grew up in a community that was basically white and Menominee Indian and up near the Canada border between the US and Canada. I mean, I grew up in the US but very close to the Canada border and so there were no African-Americans within like a two hour radius all the way around where I grew up and grew up sort of out in the woods, very little exposure to any anything happening anywhere. I could say so.
Speaker 2:Eventually, when I got to grad school, I was in a history class and I was assigned a book that really fundamentally changed my life. So I was pretty young, right, I was like 24 years old and I was assigned this book called the Education of Blacks in the South by James Anderson, who is a Stillman College graduate and a historian. He's a phenomenal historian. I'd really recommend reading this book. It is an amazing book and what happened is I read the book. It talks a lot about black colleges in the book. I mean, it gives like it's one of the best histories of black colleges out there, and but what was interesting is the whole time growing up and I'm sure both of you have had this experience too in in in high school and college, you do not get a good history of African-American history. You you really find out about slavery and civil rights and there's especially if, if you're a little bit older, you don't get much at all. You know, my daughter was incredibly lucky because she went to Philadelphia public schools and they have mandatory African-American history curriculum. That's a whole different world. But growing up really didn't learn very much. So one of the things that happened is I read that book and I started to get a little radical because I was mad as hell that we weren't, as a nation, being taught a complete history of of the nation, and so that kind of started me off and I became very, very interested in issues of philanthropy, leadership, african-american leadership, and all within the context of of black colleges. So most all of my early work through earning full professor was all related to Black colleges.
Speaker 2:I do a variety of other things now, but I'm really excited that we decided to write this book because it sort of got me back fully, even though you know I've been writing articles and doing other things like that. But this was a deep dive back into the whole HBCU research world and world in general. So that's kind of how I got interested, I'd say. One last thing is that I feel like it's really, really important that everyone understand HBCUs and that everybody like listen up and take a look at what HBCUs are doing. I think there's a lot that education in general can learn from them, and I also personally my research has a lot to do with opportunity. I think it's incredibly important for us all to be generous and to give each other opportunity, and so I've seen that in HBCUs when I didn't see that in a lot of other places, and so I've really tried to capitalize on giving back, on being generous as a scholar, et cetera. So that's a little bit about my background.
Speaker 1:So LaVon share your Rattler-Aggie Nittly Lion journey.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I appreciate it. So first let me say, as Mayor Betts stated, I really appreciate the opportunity here today to be with you and your guest and I'm looking forward to this conversation, and it's always great to be able to talk to a fellow Aggie in this case. So Aggie pride, as I put in the chat a little bit ago. So for me, yeah, exactly so for me. So I grew up in Chicago, in the south side of Chicago, and so I grew up in a house, as my dad had a PhD. So I came from a family who folks who were college educated my dad has a PhD my older sister was a pharmacist. My second older sister graduated from college, then myself and then my brother, who was five years under me. He went to school for two years and my mother as well went to IU, where Beth to school for two years and my mother as well, uh, went to IU where Maybeth graduated from for two years. My dad's actually graduated IU.
Speaker 3:So I came from a background, a family, where education was a priority. It was important. But not only that, not only was my family background, not only we value education, it wasn't, it was it. And now, not only was it important in that space, but also in my neighborhood where I grew up. I was fortunate to go to a really good elementary school K through eight school in Chicago where black identity was was really important. It was woven into the work that we did and and how we learned that I went to. I was fortunate to go to a public high school. So I've been educating public schools my whole entire life K through 12, and also had a chance to attend FAMU, a&t, penn State and worked at Iowa State, purdue and now Penn State. So my whole educational journey has been I've been immersed in public education. So I believe very strongly in public education. So I believe very strongly in public education. But so I was fortunate to be at an elementary school where the notion of Black identity was important. Then went to high school. That was a really good high school and top high schools in the city of Chicago and it was so.
Speaker 3:Although my siblings attended state schools in Illinois, illinois, state University of Illinois, chicago and a lot of my friends that I grew up with went to state schools Northern Illinois, southern Illinois, western. When I was in high school I really had no interest in going to a state school. I was I, just that wasn't my cup of tea. I wanted to venture out and attend a school out of state. And so when I was in high school I was fortunate to have some teachers and counselors who attended the likes of Prairie View, a&m, morehouse, alcorn State, so on and so forth, and so that was really started to pique my interest. And then also at the time I had classmates who themselves were interested, as we outlined in the book, who had an interest in attending HBCUs Tennessee State, morehouse, spelman, so on and so forth. But it was not until I really started to talk to my brother-in-law at the time, who was a FAMU graduate, a FAMU alum from SBI School of Business Industry, and he started to talk up FAMU, and so that started to pique my interest.
Speaker 3:And then also what converged at that point was my favorite movie of all time School Days had came out. I mean, I love that movie, favorite movie of all time. So you had School Days, the influence of School Days, you had A Different World, you had the Cosby Show and then you had my Brother-in-Law, then you also had, as I just explained, my classmates in high school who themselves wanted to attend HBCU. So you had all of this. I had all this swirling around me, and but for me, I think, in addition to my brother, I think that school days, that moment when I saw it, I was in that theater with my dad and I watched that movie and I said to myself I remember very vividly, saying to myself that's what I need to be. I need to be in a space where I I'm in classes with folks that look like me, I'm being taught by faculty members that look like me, that you just have this, this pride and joy from being at an HBCU, and that sold it for me. I mean, not yet my brother-in-law sold it in terms of FAMU, that sold it for me. I mean, not yet my brother-in-law sold it in terms of FAMU, but for me, wanting to go to an HBCU, it really that school days is what is. What probably was the nail in the coffin, if you will. But also, at the time when I was in high school, the president of FAMU, frederick S Humphreys, who I would argue is one of the all time great presidents of any HBCU, to be honest, he spent a lot of time in Chicago, a lot of time recruiting. He was on the road recruiting students, offering scholarships and the like, and Femi was in the news. All the time you look around, femi was in the news and so you have that influence and you have my brother-in-law. So, again, all this was just.
Speaker 3:I was immersed in this and I came away when I was in my senior year of high school. I said I'm going to apply to an HBCU. So I applied to the likes of Alabama State, alabama A&M, university of Arkansas, pine Bluff, morehouse, tennessee State, and FAMU, I think other institutions I applied to and I think I got accepted to most of them, if I recall correctly. But when I received that letter from FAMU, I said to my parents. I said I want to go to FAMU and they said, okay, let's make it happen.
Speaker 3:So for me, you know that exposure early on in high school, you know my family, in this case my brother-in-law talking to me about FAMU and just you know, really learning about these institutions at that age in my life is really what prompted me and what influenced me to go.
Speaker 3:And I mentioned that decision because a lot of who I am today was cultivated on the campus of FAMU and at A&T alum and and as we'll get into a little bit later I do what I can to talk to youth and and students and others who and parents, you name it who maybe don't know where they want to send their child for school, and and I talk about hbcs every time I get a chance, I think the last thing I will say is this I have three daughters um, my oldest went to iu where mary beth attended. Daughter was started out at Miles College which, as you know, is in Birmingham, but she's transferring now. She will be at Fisk starting this August. She's a scholar, student athlete. So one of my daughters isn't also herself attends HBCU. So for me, you know, having my daughter attend HBCU and then my background experience in it, you know, I don't know what else to say other than that it's done a lot for me and I'm looking forward to this conversation and talk more about it a little bit.
Speaker 1:So, lavon, you have a unique I want to say maybe not unique is not the right word you have an experience with black colleges that goes unrecognized. You have an experience with black colleges that goes unrecognized. And I think a lot of people, when they think about HBCUs, they think about the undergraduate experience but they don't talk about the graduate experience. So could you talk a little bit about what your, what your graduate experience? Your master's degree experience was at A&T, because I know what I got from A&T as an undergrad, but I say I'm not as pure as you are, cause I went to Ohio state for my master's degree. So I don't, I don't have that, that dual experience. So what? What was the experience like for you to get your master's degree?
Speaker 3:Great question. So for me, I had a phenomenal experience at A&T. My advisor, dr Alden Thompson, who we interviewed for the book, was a phenomenal, was a scholar. He was a great teacher, great mentor. I mean, I can't say anything. I can't say enough about my experience at A&T.
Speaker 3:And so for me, what led me to A&T? So I taught high school in Chicago for three, a little bit more than three years and I happened to meet, which is this is mentioned in the book. I happened to meet, which is this is mentioned in the book. I happened to meet a professor, long story short who uh attended, who was a graduate of uh southern and A&M university in Baton Rouge. So I met on the college tour we were taking some students and I told I had an interest in pursuing my master's and she and she herself, she graduated from A&T, she got a master's from A&T as well. She says, well, you should look at A&T.
Speaker 3:And so I did and landed at A&T. And so for me, I would say that that research bug, that interest in research, statistics and data analysis, was cultivated at A&T through Dr Thompson and Dr McDowell and some others, benny Gray and some others. And so for me, as I was when I was immersed in my master's degree program, I really learned the nuts and bolts of research and so that, as you can imagine, carried me on as I matriculated into Penn State. And just a side note, my advisor at Penn State, who at the time was a department head and later became the vice provost of faculty affairs at Penn State for 15, 14 years or so, he was also an A&T grad.
Speaker 3:So I've just been fortunate to be around really bright scholars and men and women who will get, who themselves attended HBCUs and I learned again a lot of who I am was, was, was cultivated not only at those institutions but also at the feet of these individuals. So, to your question, when I was at A&T, that's what cut my teeth on research. And as I became a faculty member once I graduated from Penn State, I taught courses in statistics and data analysis and research design. I wouldn't have been able to do that if it wasn't for what I learned when I was at A&T. So I owe a lot of credit to myself as a faculty member, as a teacher, as a researcher, from having attended A&T.
Speaker 1:All right. So, mary Beth, you mentioned James Anderson, we talked about you, you talked about your mentors, who are mentioned in the book, and before we talk about the power of HBCUs as the people that HBCUs develop, I did an interview with a woman by the name of Ebony O McGee, and Ebony is like a super. Ebony is like a super, like super duper STEM education scholar who studies the Black experience in STEM, and when I talked to Ebony it was, it was man. She dropped this nugget. She was like we talk a lot about racial battle fatigue, how the microaggressions and all the little subtle things can add up to be something that is really draining for the Black experience in education. But what Ebony said is that A&T gave her racial battle armor. And so how do you see HBCUs like A&T, famu, fisc and others cultivating racial battle armor and preparedness as people go out into the world in their various fields and endeavors?
Speaker 2:So I 100% agree with that. And just I'll give you an example of something. We do talk pretty extensively about this in the book. But but this a long time ago I did a research study this is years and years and years ago I mean, it probably was sometime back in like 2005 or 2007 or something with a couple of my students who had gone to HBCUs had, like this really interesting sense of confidence that I wasn't seeing in many of my Black students who didn't go to HBCUs. Okay, so it wasn't that they weren't confident, it's just that they didn't have the same level of confidence. And they also. What I noticed is that they had this amazing sense of pride in who they were and in their blackness, right. So I noticed this and I also noticed that it it resulted in them being very confident in class, speaking up in class, wanting to be, wanting to participate in everything, wanting to learn everything, right. They just had this different kind of confidence. And again, I'm not saying that the African-American students who didn't go to HBCUs didn't do a good job they did. They just weren't filled with this sense of pride around blackness that I had seen. And this is a long time ago, but so I worked on this study with a couple of students who were HBCU grads, because I asked them about it and they said oh well, my HBCU instilled in me the pride of you know going there who I am, that I can go anywhere. They equipped me to be successful in all different environments and I think that you know, with Ebony, whose research is wonderful and I've heard her talk about that before, in fact, I had her come and talk at an event that I held and I think that a lot of that is wrapped up in that right.
Speaker 2:So what happens is if you go to undergrad at an HBCU and then you go to grad school at a predominantly white institution and of course and you know, lavon knows this firsthand you encounter all kinds of crazy things. You know, like things that you are just like what the heck is this right? Here I was in this incredibly empowering environment and now I'm in an environment that might not want me there and and might want to make sure. I know I don't belong all the time, not every day, but you know, if you're feeling good, let me slip it in, right? I mean just like. So you see that, and I think what I've seen, and LeVon's laughing because he's told me all these kinds of things he's dealt with in the past, you know so.
Speaker 2:But what I've seen is HBCU students who sort of are like mm-mm, mm-mm, that's not going to happen, because I'm going like this, because I've got this armor on and I am, I'm going to move forward and I think and we talk about this in depth I think that's one of the reasons why HBCUs are so good at preparing black students for graduate school and, you know, for medical school, graduate school, pharmacy school, law school, you can go on and on and on. You get black students who go to HBCUs who end up doing incredibly well and believe they can succeed. And that's not to say that you know, everybody has self-doubt, everybody. But you know, I'm working with two young HBCU grads right now and I'm telling you they're the most confident people I've come across.
Speaker 2:I think they might be more confident than me some days. Some days I want to say, where are you getting this from? But I know where they're getting it from. They have been told that they are smart, successful, talented, valued, wanted. That is a wonderful message and it creates that armor that I think Ebony is talking about, and she's absolutely right, I mean, ebony is like one of the best scholars out there. She is a phenomenal scholar and I've read every single thing that she's written. She's a terrific scholar.
Speaker 3:So, if I may add Langston to the conversation, because everything Maybeth said is spot on and just if I may, you know, share my perspective. So when I went to Penn State Penn State is a massive institution I don't know if you've ever visited, I mean it's just, it's a sea of people when classes are let out. And so when I came from A&T and went to Penn State to Maybeth's point, you know I said more or less to myself. I said, listen, I put my shoes on just like them, but they put their shoes on just like me.
Speaker 3:So I was not the least bit intimidated by being in a sea of these white folks. Right, because I knew I was. I had that confidence that Mary Beth just mentioned and I knew I could do the work. And so for me, not one time now. Also, mind you, my advisor was a black man and he was very high standards. But even aside from that, you know, when I went to Penn State, at no point did I ever think, did the thought ever cross my mind, that this place isn't for me, I can't make it, because I went in thinking like yo, you all are just like any other student. So everything made best is spot on, but I just want to say from my own experience when I was at Penn State it was the same way.
Speaker 1:So I just thought I'd offer that up. Were there themes that came about that spoke to, or were there quotes or some nuanced insights that you got from the interviews that led you to sort of think about what the special thing is that HBCUs do to support Black students, besides what you all know experientially, besides what you all know experientially.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that I think LaVon and I both knew this going in, but keep in mind, I've interviewed about 6,000 HBCU students or alumni over the course of 25 years. So I mean, I've heard this over and over, but I will say that it doesn't matter if it's someone who just graduates from an HBCU. Isn't that well known and over talk about how absolutely breathtakingly amazing and beautiful it was to see the multitude of ways that one can be black and to see every kind of blackness. And especially for people who might not have been around that much Blackness Maybe they grew up in a predominantly white community was almost mind blowing to people. But even people who are around Blackness and grew up in Black communities, they just being in that community, in that community with people coming from all over the country, it fundamentally changed people's lives. It it gave them this sense of the? Um, the vastness of blackness, and and push them to be the kind of people who are not going to put up with someone um, trying to convince you that blackness is one thing, right. So I think that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2:And then another thing that I thought was really really interesting is how profound the impact of HBCUs is went to elementary school on the campuses. You know who. That's amazing that you know you're. My parents sent me to elementary school and then great, you know post-secondary school right on this HBCU campus or near right next to this campus. I saw those HBCU students every day. I interacted with them. They showed me that black people go to college, about black greatness. They saw black role models every day and then they decided they wanted to be 100 percent a part of it and then they decided they wanted to lead it. I mean, how many stories, lavon, did we hear of presidents who went to elementary school on black college campuses? So I think, like some of those messages were, they were just beautiful.
Speaker 3:They were really, really beautiful the way that people talked about their love for black colleges and how they had transformed their entire lives and I think I think, if I may, maybe I think what I would add to that is uh, for me and, as you know, uh, langston, there's a chapter on this is the mentoring that students receive when they were at these institutions.
Speaker 3:Uh, I mean, that chapter is chock full of accounts from from individuals we interviewed who speak of the impact of the mentoring they received when they were students, but also how they pay it forward by continuing to mentor other students, right, whether it be middle school, elementary school students, high school students, peers. So the power of mentoring that that that, myself included, received when we were at an hbcu, and and how it impacted them and influenced them to pursue master's degrees, phds, uh, go on to law, other sorts of things of that nature. So that was a profound example. Then, also, what we talk about in the book, uh, maybe kind of alluded to this is how these institutions service anchors of anchor institutions of the communities, providing access to arts and culture, stem opportunities, camps, whether it be sports related, extension, which is related, as you know, to the land grant mission of an 1890 in this case, and so for me, those two things resonated among many of who we interviewed.
Speaker 1:So, as I was reading the book, there were lots I would say layers of interesting people who were interviewed. There were layers of data from sources and quotes from presidents of universities who maybe didn't go to HBCUs but wound up being presidents of HBCUs, like Walter Kimbrough and things like that. So can you talk about the framework of the study and how it led you to the data that you got for the book?
Speaker 2:Sorry, yeah, sure, ok. So a couple of things that I would say and I want to give a little bit of background on kind of how we ended up writing this book. So you know, I, as I've said, I've been writing extensively on HBCUs for my entire career and I had met LeVon. I want to say, back in 2015, maybe LeVon reached out to me totally cold call letter, letter, real letter reached out to me, um, and asked me if he could come and do a sabbatical with me because he wanted to, like you know, sort of recharge his career and recharge his. He wanted to go for full professor, wanted to recharge his career and, um, just you know he had gotten go for full professor, wanted to recharge his career and just you know he had gotten tenure and just kind of wanted to do that. So I don't know him at all. Okay, I never met him. I don't know him. Quite frankly, Yvonne, I don't think many people knew who you were. That's accurate, I know. So I said I said fine, because you know anybody who asked me for help, I'm always willing to help. So he comes, he does this like six, seven months sabbatical with with me and our team and we gave him an office, everything, how to do high level research let's go to town here, you know. So he he did, he learned how to do a lot of different things related to research, related to HBCUs and a whole variety of other things, and so after that, we kept in touch, um, you know, uh, in all kinds of ways, like through programs, that conferences, um, and then we became really good friends and so so what happened is we?
Speaker 2:I got this, I got a call, and from Johns Hopkins university press, I had written back in 2007, I wrote a book called envisioning black colleges, and the editor at Johns Hopkins called me up and he said don't you think it's time for another HBCU book? And I said, well, I'm actually working on another book right now. I don't have time to do this right now. And he said, yeah, but it wouldn't be that difficult for you because you've got 25 years of research related. And I said, okay, but if I'll think about it, but if I'm going to do it, I want to write it with an HBCU grad this time. And so he said okay, well, who do you have in mind? Now, there are a lot of people out there who do HBCU research Now. There weren't a long time ago, but there are quite a few now. I've trained a lot of them, but you know I know most of them Right so.
Speaker 2:But I wanted to write it with someone who went to an HBCU and was like super HBCU proud, which LaVon went to two HBCUs. I know him really well and so I called him up and I said would you be interested in doing this? And he said yes, and then he said I've never written a book. And I said okay, I know that. So he, we had to make it an experience of me mentoring him and writing a book as well, because you can't just write a book that doesn't, that doesn't happen. And the other thing is LeBron and LeBron, you can talk more about this, but you had never done a large scale qualitative research project. This includes quantitative data too, but large scale qualitative research project, I mean, that's just not the kind of work that LeVon does. He had done work related to HBCUs and, of course, he has been the mentor to so many HBCU students who went on to graduate school.
Speaker 2:So we had to sit down and kind of talk about this and so, with the study, the way that we first sat down and thought, what is it that we really want to focus on? We first sat down and thought what is it that we really want to focus on? And one of the things that we wanted to do is we wanted to be very honest, we wanted to be very straightforward, we wanted to talk about the power of HBCUs, but we also, you know, I don't think that it's appropriate not to look at the things where HBCUs have challenges. I think you've got to do both, and we agreed on that, and so we talked about that. So then what happened is I, we we started by gathering everything, everything written about.
Speaker 2:You know as much as possible about HBCUs, which I have. I read everything that comes out on HBCUs, because that's what I do, right? So, and then the other thing we did is all the data, all the reports, all the National Center for Education data, all kinds of data. And then we sat down and I said to LeVon let's think of everybody we want to interview. And he's like what do you mean? I'm like everybody, just make a list. Everybody want to interview.
Speaker 2:So we made a list and we wrote to everyone we wanted to interview and we got somewhere, I think, around. We ended up interviewing 60 people. It took us almost what a full six months, um, and we ended up with amazing people. Now it is really hard to get some of these people, but but we got them all. You know the people that we wanted and when we couldn't get somebody because of you know. You know the people that we wanted and when we couldn't get somebody because of you know things coming up, what I did is went and used existing interviews. So, which is possible, you know, there are a lot of people who've written in their own memoirs about their HBCU experience, so we were able to use that too.
Speaker 2:So LaVonna and I conducted the interviews together and, you know, came up with the questions. All the questions were. There were some similarities, but people are different, right? So it's not like a qualitative interview, it's more like oral histories, which that's mainly what I do. So so, lavon, it was funny because as we were doing this, lavon was like oh my God, it's like I'm in a masterclass of leadership, because people were telling us so many amazing things. There were times where our minds would be blown Our minds would be blown by what people were telling us, like Ruth Simmons. Ruth Simmons is the smartest person I think I've ever come across in my life. You need a dictionary to talk to her. She's so smart. She's just like beyond comprehension smart. She's just like beyond comprehension smart. And so I think that, um, that's kind of how we did it. And then afterward we had reams of data and so one of the things we had to do was read all of those interviews, look for all of the major kinds of themes that come out right, and then decide how we were going to organize the book, and and we actually ended up with more chapters than we thought that we would have because we had so much data.
Speaker 2:And I think what makes the book unique is that it's written so anybody can read it. You do not need to have a PhD to read this book. I mean, your grandma can read this, but I mean, I don't know about LaVon's grandma might have a PhD, but my mom has an eighth grade education, so my grandma didn't have anything. But basically, most people could read this book right. And then the other thing is that I think it's accessible. There's funny stuff in it People swear in. You know, like we kept everything in. If someone was swearing, we left it in the interviews, it in the interviews, and so I think that it. The other thing is it's written in a general way, but it is completely 100 percent research backed. So we consulted everything, including Ebony McGee, right, anything, and everything out there. That was the highest quality research, and then we also conducted our own research. So that's how we approached it. And, lavon, I don't know if you want to say anything about what that was like like being mentored on writing a book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, first of all, I mean you know this right, mary Beth is just a phenomenal scholar, person, woman, I mean, you name it, I could go on and on but it was a learning experience and for me, I think I mean among the many takeaways was, I mean we talked to some highly successful people, right from Bell Whelan to Ruth Simmons, to Lynn Wooten, who's an A&T grad, as you probably know, even Kendi. I mean these are folks that were extremely busy, but I mean you sat and talked to these individuals and they were just like regular folks. I mean they, they, we all, we being myself, like someone like yourself, had this shared experience those who were HBCU alums and we talked about it in the same affectionate way. And it was so interesting that here I am a FAMU grad, as Ibram Kendi was, and we said the same things. I mean we had that same experience. And so for me, you know, you think Ibram Kendi, like whoa, this, is a phenomenal scholar, but yet when you talk about this topic with him, we had this shared experience. I had this shared experience with Lynn Wooten, even though she graduated years before I did. So let me just sit down and talk to these individuals and I told me that every time we had an interview it was like an independent study. I mean, I learned I have notes in my office, in my office, in my office at home, where I took notes just on the side nuggets of things that we learned, that I learned from these individuals. So for me it was a great experience.
Speaker 3:It was a lot of work but, as Mary Beth said, I think the last thing I'll end with is that this is definitely a book and she's not embellishing. This is a book that your middle schooler, high schooler, your grandmother, your aunt, anyone can read this book and then not trying to plug it, but we we have the audio version came out a couple weeks ago, beth and we have phenomenal black woman. That's the narrator. I mean, her voice is like, is like heaven when you, when you hear butter, it's like butter like butter.
Speaker 3:So it was a great experience.
Speaker 1:I just I don't know, but I want to add that, at the very least, yeah, as I was reading, I was really jealous, because there's a lot of people in the book that I wish like I could have an hour or two to interview to learn about what their experience was in leadership and mentoring and what they got from working at HBCUs but also being graduates of HBCUs.
Speaker 1:Being mindful of the time, I'm going to put two questions together, okay. So, lavon, you mentioned Black colleges as anchor institutions, and so the first part of the question is talk about what it means, what it means to be an anchor institution and how HBCUs are anchor institutions. And I think about that in a sense of oftentimes, when we think about black colleges, we think about this very narrow scope of culture, we think about the band, we think about homecoming, we think about Greek life and all of those things that matter, but there's some real serious economic impact and influence that black colleges have on communities. So talk about what it means for them to be anchor institutions. And then, mary Beth, I know you've been on the board of HBCUs before. I'm wondering if you and you all can take both questions as you see fit could talk about what the past, present and future of philanthropy has been, is and will be for historically Black colleges and universities.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I appreciate that question. So the way I would respond to this question ties back to my background, from someone who has attended Langston, who has attended and worked at land-grant institutions, right, so FAMU is 1890, a&t is 1890, purdue, ohio State, purdue, penn State, are 1862s, but land-grant is a common thread and for me this is an easy response. The response is this so when I think about my time at FAMU and A&T and how those institutions serve as anchor institutions, I look at it through the lens of agriculture and the extension system and how these institutions provided access to resources to farmers, to just common everyday households, whether it be information they need to, you know, related to how do you not just farm on a large scale, but how do you? You know, how do you prepare foods, right? Maybe you're in a low-income family how do you prepare foods in a more economical way? The 4-H is tied to, of course, the land-grant system. So how the 4-H serves the youth development needs of youth in the community, that's another way. But also in terms of the community and economic development aspect, that 1890, that these institutions lend themselves to these communities.
Speaker 3:So, whether it be tuskegee, uh, whether it be again fam unat, when it comes to the role that these particular institutions have in their communities, having to fulfill that land grant mission and to see the impact that these institutions have on households, um, it's truly remarkable. So. So, for me, that's what I would speak to, because, again, I'm a born and bred Aggie, no pun intended. And so, for me, that's why I saw the impact in those ways, especially when it comes to the role that these institutions play to support Black farmers, which we all are familiar with. So, for me, that's the impact that I saw, having intended family, having attended FAMU, having attended A&T and just being immersed in agriculture because, again, all three of my degrees are in agriculture. So, for me, that's the impact that I saw and that's how I see the role of this anchor institution, role being played out by these institutions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what stood out to me, the thing that made me ask that question, was Graham I think was the president of Grambling was talking about the role that Grambling State University plays in that city. And then I also think back to a conversation I had with a mentor at A&T and this is like a testament to what it means to be a graduate of a historically black college. I will go back to A&T years later while I'm in graduate school and have sit downs with my mentors from undergrad and I'll never forget. Miss ford told me she was like langston, was having some type of debate.
Speaker 1:she was saying, langston, there would be no black middle class in greensboro, north carolina, if a and t didn't exist none at all and the same is like if we think about the whole state of north carolina and other states, there would be no black middle class probably in america, if not for historically black colleges and so um that is an absolute fact.
Speaker 2:There's not even any arguing with it. There would, there would not be. They fundamentally change the lives of african americans.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's an absolute fact. And you know, I think about james anderson book, but also think about the white architects of black education. Yeah, william Watkins, philanthropy Right. And so, mary Beth, can you talk a little bit about the role philanthropy has played and will play at black colleges?
Speaker 2:Sure, and for people listening, read William Watkins book, the Architects of Black Education. He passed away about a decade ago, but just a phenomenal, phenomenal scholar. They funded the majority of black colleges, with the exception of the African Methodist Episcopal Church institutions, which took another approach to things. But in funding them they tried to control them and wanted to sort of instill a certain way of being black and luckily, black students throughout history rose up against that and fought back against that and decided that no, that wasn't going to happen, and you know most. I will say a couple of things. Historically, foundations, individual philanthropists, corporations, have typically given black colleges a small little portion of what they gave to the white institutions right next to them. So I've done a lot of research on this. Looking at, you know, if you look in Atlanta, you'll see that the philanthropists gave a ton of money to Emory and would give like this much to the black colleges and be like will you be satisfied with that? That still happens today. Yeah, okay, it still happens today. So, um, what what you've been seeing lately is you've been seeing I I would say what you've seen lately is um more philanthropic giving to black colleges. So you've seen a lot of big name people, folks with Netflix, you know, especially Mackenzie Scott, who we talk about extensively.
Speaker 2:I think she really approached things in a very different way because she decided that she was not going to, she was going to be hands off. So she was going to do all her homework on the way in and decide who to give the money to and then have no strings attached. You, you do. You trust the leadership she only gave the certain institutions that she felt were very, very stable and, and you know, kind of did that homework. I think she'll come back again and do some more. She did a couple rounds but she gave an enormous amount of money she's got, you know, kind of did that homework. I think she'll come back again and do some more. She did a couple rounds but she gave an enormous amount of money she's got. You know, she can't even get rid of that money. She's got so much of it. She just she gives it away and then it grows and grows and grows, right.
Speaker 2:So I think she'll continue to give little worried that you're going to see a little bit of a dip because of the anti-DEI stuff going on, because of all the anti-blackness um, because of the anti-affirmative action, um, and people might be thinking you know, dei, affirmative action, what does that have to do with HBCUs? But people who don't like black people, they wrap all that stuff together. Ok, they don't care. So they're going to wrap that all up and then they're going to be not want to. They corporations are probably going to scale back a little. I don't know if the foundations will do it. Most of them are fairly liberal but but but corporations, might you know? You're seeing a lot of DEI positions being canceled all over the place. I didn't mean to use the word canceled, but you know, like being ended, right it is being canceled, though it is canceled.
Speaker 2:I know the word is overused, but it's true. That's what's happening Right and this is right. After everybody, everybody was like I need DEI. I need DEI because it makes me feel like, you know, because it makes me feel like I don't have to think about George Floyd. Right, if I put DEI in place and so you've got all these corporations that wanted to be pro-DEI and then all of a sudden they don't need to anymore, right? Because it's been several years since we saw all of those murders of Black people. So I think that I'm worried that the philanthropy may trail off a bit. Hopefully that doesn't happen. Hopefully that doesn't happen, and hopefully people like Mackenzie Scott will. And I'm hoping that Melinda Gates, who recently got divorced and has a lot of money, will also give to HBCUs. She cares a lot about women. I'm hoping she'll give to something for women in HBCUs. I keep saying that out loud, hoping that it'll happen.
Speaker 1:You'll hear it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I will say I think there's a lot of people concerned that the philanthropy won't keep up, but I I'm hopeful that it will. I'm hopeful that there are enough people who won't be bullied into running away from equity and running away from positive portrayals of blackness right Instead of being anti-black.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I want to. Again. I'm going to put two questions together and I think it's appropriate that they go together. Broadly speaking, can you all talk about the future of higher education and how HBCUs fit into that and then, within that, talk about, you know, changes that we see in leadership, with more women getting opportunities to be presidents, provosts, vice presidents, research or what have you historically black colleges and I also want to note that within the UNC system, all of the presidents of historically black colleges and universities, except for one have women who are presidents, and so there's some history being made, or almost history being made, with, you know, a&t being the only one that that hasn't had a woman be chancellor before. But just talk about what you see is the future of higher ed, the future of black colleges, and how women are ascending or can continue to ascend in that future Historically black colleges and universities.
Speaker 2:LaVon, you want me to start?
Speaker 3:Yeah, go ahead, you start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so two things. First, I'm going to answer the woman question first. I think women are the future of higher ed and I think you're going to see a lot more black women who are leading HBCUs and are also leading all kinds of other institutions, including Hispanic serving institutions, predominantly white institutions, et cetera, et cetera. And I, I I was telling somebody earlier today, every opportunity that we have at our center, we get so many black women who apply for things. I can't. I mean I feel bad because I could just accept all black women for everything I could. I mean I have to diversify it so that there are some other people, you know, like some men, who get things, et cetera, but but but I literally black women are on it, ok, they are on it, and so I think you're going to see a lot more black women wanting to be presidents, moving into that presidential role. Here's where I'm worried. Boards are still hugely men and and they need to get out of the way and let Black women lead. I'm not saying that men can't lead, I'm saying that if you have a woman who's president, let her lead, right, don't try to silence her Don't try
Speaker 2:to control her, all of those things. So I'm excited about that. I think there are some amazing women who are going to really take HBCUs to different levels, you know. So my answer about the future here are things that are on my radar. On my radar is AI and how HBCUs are, what curricula they have that's related to AI, how well trained are their faculty going to be, their students? Are big corporations that are, you know, doing all this AI? Are they reaching out to HBCUs and engaging with them? Where's the money going? Because I don't know about you, but the money is all around AI. It's just floating around it the investment money, all the opportunities and what people are looking at.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you saw there was an interview with the CEO of NVIDIA and he said you know, I want people who are critical thinkers and who have, like a real sense of really. He was looking for people, arts and humanities people, people who are culturally astute. Hbcus can provide that, right. I mean, yeah, you need the technical stuff, but you need all the other things as well, and he was talking about that. He also was talking about how he thinks it's really important that people have a little struggle in life, because it changes them Right. As somebody who had a little struggle in life, I will say that it's made me really strong.
Speaker 2:Most HBCU students I know have had a little struggle in life. We know that. You know, almost 70% are Pell Grant eligible students, making them, like me I was a Pell Grant eligible student some of the, you know, lowest income students in the country. We know that many of them are first gen not all but that creates a little bit of a struggle in your life. You know you have to you. In many ways, you're responsible for the success of your future family, your, your, your past family and your future family, and so I think that HBCU grads are really sturdy and they're also like you know, they're strong and they have a lot of the things that I see those organizations looking for. But I'm I'm my eye is on our black people included, our HBCUs included. That's something I'm thinking about. That's a very narrow thing, but it's happening everywhere and I don't want HBCU students to be left out and I don't want that.
Speaker 3:And I think what I would only thing I would add to that is you know everything. Of course Maybeth said is true, but I think for me and I hate to bring this up, but if you think about what this is July, august and next four months or so we're going to be- why are you going to be electing a new president in November?
Speaker 3:and we're going to HBCUs will be needed, more so at that point in time, moving forward, than any point in time in our history, and I think that because of that what Mary Beth just spoke of we need to figure out ways to how do we bolster these institutions so that they can be ready to receive what we're already seeing in terms of the increase in applications and enrollment at these institutions.
Speaker 3:Again, from someone not just who attended HBCU again, my middle daughter is attending one right now. I'm seeing her thrive. It's a good place for her and I've seen some of the students I've mentored over the years as an advisor in my former institution and even when I speak to students now. So there is a place for black and brown students and I think these places will, in the end, be HBCUs. But at the same time, we need to do what we can as someone like yourself, langston, who gives back Mae Beth who does and the work that she does, and myself included. How do we, as a collective, what do we do to really help both these institutions so that they're ready to receive and in a position to receive students and give them what they need as they matriculate through their degree programs?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I'm going to invite people who have joined us on the Zoom. If you have questions, you can type them in the chat. I'm going to ask my final two questions to give you all just an opportunity to think about questions you may have, and we'll try to get one or two in before we close out. So, because we have Origins as a book club, I'm wondering Mary Beth, I'm wondering LaVon you all did, you said y'all interviewed 60 people. All the interviews not in here. There's no way.
Speaker 2:Oh no, they are.
Speaker 1:They are, but I'm saying every part of every interview.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, no, no, no, no, because you wouldn't want to do that. Yeah, no, you don't. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:It'd be like super big.
Speaker 2:No, because we use the interviews to write the book. But we, you know the we wouldn't put the full interview in there. The interviews were all about an hour 45 minutes to an hour long.
Speaker 1:So with all that data, all that information, if there were an extra chapter or section of the book that you will want included, or maybe didn't have the space for what would that be?
Speaker 2:included or maybe didn't have the space for what would that be? I mean, it's interesting because you know you gave us a little heads up that you're going to ask us this and it's actually a really interesting question because I feel like the book is very comprehensive, but it might be interesting I mean, we do cover some of this but maybe a chapter that is solely dedicated to activism. I mean, we definitely talk about leadership, we talk about activism a lot of it in the history of the of HBCUs in the first chapter, but I think a chapter that focuses on activism in the current day would be really interesting.
Speaker 2:Lavon just alluded to something about the presidential election. Or you know, what do you see students in terms of the presidential election? Hot button issues in the country? Black Lives Matter, how does all of that, how did all of that play out on college campuses? So we definitely talk about those issues throughout the book, but a chapter dedicated to that topic, yeah, we could have. We could add some. We could definitely have added another chapter. The thing about publishers is they only let you have the book be so long and it was really much longer than they wanted, but we threw it in there anyway. But, but I would say that I don't know. Lavon, what would you say?
Speaker 3:So I don't know.
Speaker 3:Maybe not a chapter necessarily, but you know, langston, mary Beth and I both mentioned how anyone can read this book A high schooler, your aunt, your uncle, your dad, your mom, your grandmother and, using their critical thinking skills, come away with a pretty sound rationale as to why they would go.
Speaker 3:I think if there was a way that we could write a chapter I know as talented Mary Beth is we could probably create something where we really speak, because I've met several people in the last few weeks that said to me I didn't know anything about HBCUs growing up. I went to Texas A&M, I went to University of Florida. I didn't know anything about HBCUs growing up. I went to Texas A&M, I went to University of Florida. I didn't know anything about it. So there was a way that we could really distill the information into a chapter that speaks to a high school student or even an eighth grader, in such a way that they say I truly understand why I should consider going to an HBCU, not to say that we didn't do that and weave that throughout each chapter, but because we can condense it into a chapter. That's what I would like to see.
Speaker 1:So, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, mary Beth LaVon, I don't see any questions in the chat. Let me double check the Q&A real quick. Let me make sure, because I don't want I don't want to leave anybody disappointed. I don't leave anyone disappointed, so let me make sure there's no questions in the q? A. I don't see any ques. Oh, we do, yeah, okay. Okay, so there are disparities. Yolanda says there are disparities, um, uh, funds for larger. There are disparities, funding for larger HBCUs than the smaller ones, and so could you talk about funding disparities, and I think a lot of it has to do with being private versus public, historically black colleges and universities maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that's a really, really complicated thing because it depends on a whole bunch of factors. It depends on the state that you're in. It depends on if you're public or private. It depends on how well known you are. So just to break that down, depending on the state if you're a state institution, in some states you're going to get a larger allotment. In other states you're going to get a larger allotment. In other states you're not Quite.
Speaker 2:Frankly, every single state underfunds HBCUs and owes HBCUs a ridiculous amount of money because of the longtime systemic racism and cheating HBCUs out of money and we have proof of that. There's almost a billion dollars that HBCUs have been cheated out of, especially the land grant HBCUs. So those are the state. Hbcus are the bigger ones. Now they typically do not get the large philanthropic donation. There are some exceptions. When Ruth Simmons was at Prairie View, she got the largest Mackenzie Scott donation because she's Ruth Simmons OK. When David Wilson at Morgan State has gotten some pretty substantial donations really good fundraiser. Harold Martin at North Carolina A&T phenomenal got, you know, pretty large donations.
Speaker 2:But there are a lot of you know significantly sized HBCUs that that are public that don't get hardly any donations at all. And then you have the privates and you've got a group of privates that get a lot of donations and a lot of attention. So they would be Spellman, morehouse, xavier, hampton, house, xavier Hampton. I would say Dillard can fall in there occasionally, but but it's, it's an Howard Right. So, and Howard is, you know, always an oddball, because it's, it's, it's publicly funded and but private Right, because of the, the act of Congress. But but basically you've got some privates that get a lot more money and it's because they're more well-known.
Speaker 2:The exact same thing happens with a majority institutions. In fact the same thing happens with majority public institutions. Most of the money clusters to a small group and the rest of the institutions don't get that much. So then you have some small HBCUs that get nothing. I mean, they really don't get anything. So the size really is not the main factor, it's how well you're known.
Speaker 2:Your ranking plays a part in that. It has to do with like a lot of negotiating If you're a state institution. It also has to do with like a lot of negotiating if you're a state institution. It also has to do with your curriculum, because if you have a curriculum that allows you, like a science heavy curriculum, ok, like a Xavier you have a science heavy curriculum. You can go after those big government contracts and big government grants in a way that a small HBCU without a science curriculum cannot go after. So there's all kinds of factors involved in it and uh and it's. It's as complicated as this. It's the same kind of complications, except for most minority institutions get more money Not all, but most of them do. And, quite frankly, the reason why that is is because it's because of systemic racism in the way that we fund them.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. Thank you both for joining us. I want to encourage everyone who's listening and everyone who's watching to pick up and ask us a few questions. Thank you for listening and, if you're watching, click on the screen to see more of Historically Black Colleges and Universities. Thank you for listening to today's show. As I mentioned in the introduction, this episode is part of a special series featuring voices from Historically Black Colleges and Universities. This is part of a larger effort to support the From A&T to PhD Endowed Scholarship in North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, an effort that I co-founded with two friends of mine who are also on their doctoral journeys. If you would like to support this effort, please review the show notes to make a donation to the endowment. Thank you,