Entrepreneurial Appetite

The State of Black Design: A Conversation with Dr. Terresa Moses

• Langston Clark, Shawn Rhoder, Terresa Moses • Season 5 • Episode 43

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What if you could broaden your definition of design to encompass everyday life and systemic change? Join us in this enlightening episode where we welcome Dr. Terresa Moses, editor of the groundbreaking anthology "Blackness State of Black Design," and Shawn Rhoder, founder of Nomad Inc., as they share their unique perspectives on the intersections of Black identity and design. Dr. Moses discusses the critical catalyst behind her anthology, driven by the profound impact of George Floyd's murder, while Shawn Rhoder emphasizes the need to recognize design beyond traditional confines. Together, they explore how the Black experience can serve as a powerful and valid research methodology, advocating for the inclusion of Black voices in design and publishing.

As we navigate the complexities of creating community-centered designs, we underscore the necessity of empathy and intentionality. Our guests reflect on a poignant case study illustrating the pitfalls of well-meaning but misguided community interventions, and we delve into the ways the pandemic has reshaped our connections. Through heartfelt anecdotes, we stress the importance of designing spaces that facilitate relationship-building and highlight the often-overlooked art of stewardship. Moreover, we discuss the importance of understanding and respecting the relational dynamics of various cultures to foster truly inclusive environments.

Finally, we address the emotional journey of building trust within the Black community, especially in tech and design sectors. Our conversation examines the influence of systemic barriers like white supremacy and capitalism on trust and collaboration. By fostering open communication and establishing community agreements, we aim to build stronger networks that contribute to collective liberation. Additionally, we explore the challenges of maintaining authenticity in Black design amidst a capitalist landscape, stressing the need to amplify Black voices to preserve the genuine spirit and aesthetic of Black culture. This episode promises to inspire and educate, offering valuable insights into the multifaceted world of Black design.

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Langston Clark :

Hey everyone, thank you again for your support of Entrepreneurial Appetite. Beginning this season, we are inviting our listeners to support the show through our Patreon website. The founding 55 patrons will get live access to our monthly discussions for only $5 a month. Your support will help us hire an intern or freelancer to help with the production of the show. Of course, you can also support us by giving us five stars, leaving a positive comment or sharing the show with a few friends. Thank you for your continued support. What's up everybody? Continued support. What's up everybody.

Langston Clark :

My name is Langston Clark and I'm the founder and organizer of Entrepreneurial Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting Black businesses. And today we have two very special guests the newly-minted Dr Teresa Moses, who is the editor of an anthology of Blackness State of Black Design. She is a proud Black queer woman dedicated to the liberation of Black and brown people through art and design. As a professor and illustrator and community engaged scholar, her work centers anti-racism abolition, black feminism and Black liberatory futures.

Langston Clark :

And I have also the honor of introducing a good brother here in the community where I live by the name of Sean Roeder. The best way for me to describe him is that he is a father and he absolutely loves being a dad, and I think that that's something that's pretty common here amongst the black dads in our community here in San Antonio. So I want to start off by just acknowledging him as that. Want to start off by just acknowledging him as that he is the founder of Nomad Inc. Which is a beauty company that designs tools and tech distinctly suited for beauty on demand. The tools enable barber stylists and makeup artists nail tests to functionally and efficiently harm barber or beauty services anywhere a client may choose.

Shawn Rhoder:

Thank you, Langston, for the introduction and Dr Moses, thank you for just being here with me. I've never spoken to a doctor in this capacity, so it's really exciting for me. But I want to say congratulations on the defense and I unfortunately will not be addressing you as Teresa. It will be Dr Moses, because you deserve that. Everything you work for Definitely want to make certain that we normalize that as well. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll start it off quickly. Please just give us just your inspiration by creating the anthology of Blackness, blacks and Desire.

Terresa Moses:

Yeah, so when me and Omari first had this conversation, it was, you know, after what had happened here in Minneapolis this is where I'm at the murder of George Floyd and sort of the activations around Black identity, especially in, you know, with regard to design. And so we had a conference. He had organized that conference and I was kind of taking on the part of organizing the journals. It's like with every conference, you know, that's like a kind of a norm to have, like folks publish work, so that quickly kind of evolved into then, you know, a lot of works coming in, so much so that you know we couldn't take all of them. And so then you know, as we started to edit and really dive into you know, the content that we had, we, you know I think it might've been Omari who was like, yeah, let me just actually ask my publisher. That didn't seem to work out. And then I was already working with the publisher because I have a second book and I had sent it over to them, and they were like, you know, heck, yeah, we'll support this.

Terresa Moses:

And so then kind of was like it kind of snowballed because it became this not just advocating for like black voices in design but Black voices in publishing, which is a I don't know, I definitely expected that, but trying to advocate for the Black experience to be a methodology was really interesting to me.

Terresa Moses:

But yeah, that's kind of how it started. And then you know, we'd be continuing to work with the creators and the authors and our publisher, who was really supportive of that understanding. You know that the Black experience was a, like a method of research and should be weighed just as heavily and that felt really good. And, yeah, we really wanted to create this sort of outline that could change the canon in a way, especially in the way that we like learn design and the impacts of design and how Black identity plays such a huge role in a lot of things that I think continually are erased. So, yeah, I like to think of the anthology as like this advocacy for Blackness in design and also in, you know, like our voice and in publishing and you know in all the ways that, like, eurocentricity has diminished in our voice, and so it just felt really powerful.

Shawn Rhoder:

I completely agree, and the fact that the way the book is laid out, different authors and researchers giving their different perspectives. It was really cool For those out there who think design is architecture or design is tech. Design is this, what is? What do you feel design is?

Terresa Moses:

So in my other work I have another book called Racism, untaught with a colleague of mine, lisa Mercer, and how we define design, as in three specific areas, the first one being artifacts, the second one being systems and the third one being experiences. And when you define design in this way, you really make design an accessible piece for everyone to understand how they are a part of that. Perhaps folks are not designing and creating artifacts, but we are all involved in a broader system of sorts. You know religious institutions, academic institutions, like just going to the grocery store that's an institution itself right, like food sovereignty and like access that's an institution itself right, like food sovereignty and like access. And so you know, once we begin to understand how each of us play a role in creating and crafting out, you know, these artifacts, these systems or experiences are using them to support these broader systems of oppression. I think that power then gets folks to understand how impactful design can be.

Terresa Moses:

So design is really the creation of artifacts, it's the creation and the perpetuation of systems and it's our everyday experiences, every time we're walking just down the street.

Terresa Moses:

All of these things have been designed, but one of the examples I like to talk about is Robert Moses, who is considered the godfather of architecture and modern transportation and was also considered one of the most racist and sexist individuals, and created bridges eight or 10 feet tall so that buses that were 12 feet tall weren't able to go to certain parts of the city. And then, like you just ask the question like who rides the bus, and so you know, you start to understand how all of these things you know, while we're thinking like, oh, you know, a zip code can't really tell you, like, the life expectancy of, like you know, elderly Black people. It absolutely can, and it was designed that way. And so, for me, I think about design as a very broad, impactful thing, very intentional, and I think that's if I think about the difference between art and design. I think about intention and how there is like a specificity to all the decisions that go into creating some sort of artifacts, some sort of systems or some sort of experience.

Shawn Rhoder:

There's an author named Bob Orst and he wrote a book called Scene Systems. You would absolutely love it. It talks about just the different systems, you know, the social circles, the emotional circles and so forth, that these systems actually dictate the way we act, the way we perceive things. He runs a clinic of some sort for CEOs and he places them in rank and fight and they quit after two or three days. When they're placed in a system that they normally are not socially, the social constructs just don't make sense to them. They cry, they burst into tears, and so he pretty much just places that system that they impart and impress on people and he places them in that system. Segway brings me to. Ibm stated that design is defined by its intent, and then they talked about design also needs to be impactful. So how, with IBM saying it's about the intent, and then you speaking of the impact of design, looking at how they design systems for black people and things like that, how has that impacted our society today?

Terresa Moses:

That's really interesting that the way that they define design because I feel like often in the work that I engage in, you know justice, center design, equity, you know those spaces really talk about it actually doesn't matter what your intentions were.

Terresa Moses:

It's about the impact. And whenever people do say like we want to make an impact on community, I always ask that question like give me the adjective like what's what kind of impact? Like give me the descriptor of what you're trying to do, because oftentimes people just want to make their mark and their mark can be highly colonized, it can be highly problematic and really affect communities very negatively. And so I think you know I don't find that surprising that definition. I do think there is absolutely intention behind when you are creating a design. There's absolutely intention behind that. But I think what makes an empathetic or a design process that centers community is going to be one that measures the impact of what we are creating with community. Doesn't separate yourself from you know the population right, because if you understand yourself as the one who is also being impacted, you design differently.

Terresa Moses:

You know, you don't just like go into some third world you know country and that's definitely in quotations, air quotes and say like, oh, like they really needed, you know, a water access. And you know I'm going there and I'm going to feel really good about myself and creating a pipe that goes from you know this river to their house, and I'm going to feel really great and and then you leave and so that to me, you know you're not. If you are not diving into that experience, it can't really be an effective and positively impactful design that you're creating. There's like a case study.

Terresa Moses:

I remember learning in grad school I can't remember the name of it but people did just that.

Terresa Moses:

They created this access to this well inside the city because they saw that women were, you know, essentially what they said was wasting time going down to the river and, you know, carrying the water on their head, all those things. And when they built this well, they noticed that the women still weren't using the well and it's because they didn't rationalize or understand that that was a time for women to connect. That was a time for women to like get out of the house, not be around their kids, talk about whatever they need to talk about, connect with each other, build community, and I think that's one thing oftentimes that people don't think about when they think about designing like systems and understanding experiences. Because people of color specifically or I'm going to speak to the black experience, black people we are highly relational I think about like the little kids who will say you know, I'm not doing well in school because my education and academia and how it really deters us Black people from feeling like we could succeed in those environments.

Shawn Rhoder:

It leads me to my next question. In the book it says fading art of stewardship. One of the authors goes on and says that when I was young and Blankson could speak to it and Vanessa, you may be able to speak to it as well when I came home from church we used to get and they give this example getting the house ready for pastors coming over and all the church family stuff, like that You're cooking and everything. House smells amazing and all sorts of those things, and so that lost art of stewardship and connection. Just like you said, digitally it's changed where everyone's meeting. That's affected our connection. How do we decide better ways to be better stewards of each other?

Terresa Moses:

That is a really hard question and I think about it because we are. We're still in a pandemic, very much still in the pandemic, but I think about the way the lockdown really changed how we connect. I was talking to someone today I met them in person today and I was just thinking about, like even the way like that I, my eye contact is with people is different than it was and I, and so even that experience, I think is just is, is very, it's just very strange to think about. And so it's like, how do you design intentional spaces where once it didn't really feel like you had to design those spaces because you were connecting relationally very easily? But I guess, if you bring back the example about education, I mean there's all kinds of biases in everyone when we think about, like, the way that we educate and care for Black kids and our education system. But I guess I could only speak to this with regard to my educational experience, like in the way that I care for the students that are in my classrooms, and so I try to build in intentional ways for us to think about that relationship and I don't just make the assumption that this is how the relationship is going to go.

Terresa Moses:

I remember how I was taught in undergrad and when I left undergrad I said to myself that I'm never going back, never, I know. I know You're sitting here like you just got your PhD and you're a tenured professor, like I'm just you know. I was really like I am never going back. I'm just you know. I was really like I am never going to go to the meeting here. Yeah, I hated it. And so now it's like I go into the classroom and I think what is the opposite of what was happening to me? And I try to do that. And so one of the ways that I like to talk about is I'm creating a community agreement and I'm sure folks, you know, if you're in this equity space, that you are familiar with what a community agreement is, and what it is is a way for us to not assume how we're going to be in space with one another, how, how, what I need from you to thrive in this space. It's really a definition of that, and I like to even think about this. You know, when I was first learning the community agreement, I was like going on a family vacation soon. I was like I'm going to do this on that family vacation, because you know everybody's like you got to do all the things. That it's like sometimes, like you know, I had to. You know, tell y'all, I just want to rest, I just want to sleep in, or whatever you know, and so it's.

Terresa Moses:

It's just having that open, vulnerable conversation so that no one's feelings are getting hurt. There are no assumptions about what was supposed to happen or some wild expectations. You know, and I like to give the example that, like in this community agreement that I make with students, that I'm like okay, you know, how do we want to show up to class? Are we showing up prepared? Do we find a need for that to be like a necessary thing for us to thrive in the class? And, like, when we have that conversation, they all end up being like absolutely, yeah, I think it is really horrible when someone comes to class and they don't have what they were supposed to have for that class, that we can all discuss and we can all learn from each other. And so what that does is, you know, in the middle of the semester, when everybody's tired out and they're burnt out and they're just like we don't really want to be here, I go back to that and I'm like well, this, this was. Y'all say I, I'm just here, I'm just, you know, I'm just doing my job. Y'all said that you wanted to be prepared and you wanted to have you know the things that you need.

Terresa Moses:

So it involves, like, this constant check-in, this constant like, let's like, and I do this, like in my personal relationships too. I think if my friends were to hear me right now, they'd be like of course you do check-ins in your relationships Absolutely, because this is like how are we, what's going on with us? Like it's like. You know, people talk about like when they break up with someone, they are blindsided by it, and it's like that's not, that's not, that's not me and that's not. This process of like actually like caring for people, involves you not assuming like what's going on with them, but like how, how am I? Am I?

Shawn Rhoder:

helping you thrive. Like what could I be doing better? You know? I would say, you know I've lost out about a breakup, so I spicy like, oh, you thought.

Terresa Moses:

I was spilling, yeah, but like yeah, you know, you know, ain't. No, you thought I was spilling you because they know that I wasn't.

Shawn Rhoder:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You let them all talk, 100%, 100%. And what you're saying is great because you give them agency to kind of design the agreement, which is great, and so you're creating a completely different environment for them to grow. And that comes to my next question You're killing it right now. Right, I can see why you're a doctor. You're literally rolling into the questions that I have, which is why I think a lot.

Shawn Rhoder:

So they said becoming giants, which is and I'll kind of give an example like you know me, meeting people on the way that I met them in tech and in the hardware space. I was in fashion before and so I'm from, I guess I would say, a different generation of people. When you know we were. All the game is to be sold, not told that that kind of crap. So when, becoming a giant or building these giants is not something that I'm used to. Anybody like pouring into you Now it's a thing that I see with a different generation.

Shawn Rhoder:

And so my question is they said becoming giants. I would love to ask and get your perspective on that emotional journey of building giants and helping people become giants and building that bridge to, whether it's in the design space, the equity space or anything, because I feel it's my opinion and just a little bit of my experience. A lot of my experience. I have never, I have never had a positive experience with a black investor, a black designer, a black graphic artist, anyone in the tech space. If they were black, black, if they looked like me, it was awful and and by giants we're just talking about like success.

Terresa Moses:

I'm thinking about the experiences I have with black folks. So I, I own a design studio and you know there is a, and so you know, uh, if there is a black entrepreneur, somebody who you know wants to rebrand, create new website, you know, have some video or some audio produced, you know I want to be there to support them. I will say I'm not sure what that is that you just named, I'm not really sure what that is. That makes that experience sometimes not great and I hate to talk about like our community in that way, but like it is, it's true and it's in, it's true in my experience and I all.

Terresa Moses:

All I can do, I think, is I can't take things personally and it's not going to stop me from trying to help another black entrepreneur and so that that's the only thing that I can do. I can't control anyone else's actions. I way long now, but like I would never do something without a contract, like you know things like that, you know I can set those like safeguards in place to try and like train the client, and we call our clients partners, so like to try and train partners, and this doesn't even happen only with black people. But, like, sometimes, folks just they've never worked with a designer before, so they don't understand, like, what trust looks like. You're not going to sit here and try and tell me what I need to do in this design. You're going to trust my expertise and allow me to, you know, solve some of these problems for you. That's why you've hired me. So it's about like, for me, it's about setting safeguards and those expectations up front. We have a guide that we send out to our new partners and it says taking flight with my studio is called Blackbird Revolt, so it's taking flight with Blackbird. You know what is that? What does that mean? And one of those key things in there is about trust.

Terresa Moses:

And I think it goes kind of back to this like community agreement piece where it's like here's how, this is the foundation for how we're going to work together. And if you don't want to work together this way, that's absolutely fine. Please go and find yourself another designer. And I think I'm at a place of like privilege, right To be able to be like. No, I'm going to say no to this designer, cause when you first start now you gotta say yes, you need to pay these bills.

Terresa Moses:

So all I can say, like for you know, as we begin to like, continually cultivate our community, to work together, is that we have, we have to put safeguards in place for each other, and I think a community agreement is a great like framework for that to happen. I even think about how that plays out in the organizing community and the organizing space and like people coming with their own ideas, people coming with their own levels of trust for each other. You know your family did this thing to my family. You know, 50 years ago, like they bring it in all of these things and it's like we all still want, you know, black liberation for us to. You know, in totality, that's what we want to see. So how do we overcome those things while still holding the nuance that, like those things exist? He should unsmack mama Like I mean, that happens, you know, but how do we hold that and still work together towards collective liberation? I think it's an interesting design problem to try and solve.

Terresa Moses:

But I do think having some sort of like formatted like here are the expectations. There are no assumptions in our relationship. There are no. Well, why didn't she do it this way? Because I would have done this way, you're not them, and so understanding people coming with their own identity, so it's just like these sort of guiding principles, I think, is going to be a really important piece for us to begin to work together in a more unified fashion.

Terresa Moses:

And I think then I heard someone say once that you can't deliver a heavy message, especially a heavy message of critique, to someone, unless that bridge is strong enough to hold that.

Terresa Moses:

And so if you don't have a strong enough bridge, it's just that that that bridge is strong enough to hold that. And so if you know you don't have a strong enough bridge, you know it's just that relationships that crumble. So I think it's about, I think the foundation of that is like sort of having these like guiding principles, right, but then really focusing on building trust with each other, because I feel like white supremacy has done such a good job of making sure we do not trust each other, making sure that we have capitalism as our number one thing, even though that is like the biggest thing tied to racism. It's like white supremacy has really fooled us. And so for those of us who do see what's going on, I think it's really important for us to have patience. Please have our safeguard measures in place, but I think that we have to come to this with a little bit more understanding and empathy, that people are not there yet, and so then, how do we move together in spaces at different levels safely and unified?

Shawn Rhoder:

They spoke with a book in the beginning of the year the Eurocentric gaze. The Eurocentric gaze, I think, has it's skewed our view of each other. It's skewed our view of what the expectations of design are. I remember when I first opened my store, and you know so, I had some architects design it, you know, and everything, and I would walk out from the back and so the clothing that was in there I had Unifon wears, watches from London. They had never, they had never been in the States. I had Cargo. I was one of the first accounts in the country to have Cargo. Now they're everywhere. Cargo was the brand who sold the three sharks to adidas.

Shawn Rhoder:

I remember people walking in and they'd be like you on this, and so that's was the the craziest thing that because everything was put in its place and was designed well, they couldn't believe that I owned. Then they'd be asking are you gay? You know they would ask like wild questions, like I'm like and this is, this is 14 years'm thinking to myself like damn, like, just because things are folded and that you know. And then black people would walk in. They'd walk in with a completely different attitude and say, oh, I heard a black dude designs this. They came, come in all rough and tough, then they'd see it, and then their whole body language would change. You know, the nonverbal communication would be completely different, and so just the design of the store would dictate the behavior and communicate a different message. And then I would be there. That would take our whole whole life of itself.

Shawn Rhoder:

You know, they'd have, they'd have the audacity to just, oh, what'd you get your money for? I'm like that's like me, asking you well, go get naked in the back, let me see your body, and you will. Quality. You all have been mine, I, I'm going to get in yours and and and. To your point. You have to have. There has to be some sort of mental issue for you to feel that you have the right to ask someone that like all the time, like I never met you before. But your first, your first question is how did you get your money to do something like this?

Terresa Moses:

So, so, really quick, when I, when I, when I hear something here, something like that, I do think I'd be taken aback as well. However, for our people to be that curious about how we got to this place, I mean, can you imagine how much hopelessness there has to be going on in the back of our mind for for us to be seeing someone at this place and you're like how this is magic, you know? Like how did you even get to this place, you know? And so that's like the first kind of thing that comes to my mind is like I really start to understand, you know, that experience and like I think that we are just constantly underinvested and like we don't get believed and people don't want to trust us with things, like we don't get the training that we need, and so, you know, we can't save everybody, right, but I just I feel for our community. When I hear these things, I'm just like it's absolutely true that people are astonished, right. I wish that wasn't the case.

Shawn Rhoder:

So, as Alfonso Williams, you mentioned, you know what makes the side black, you know what makes the sign black, and so I dealt with that. There's ancestors of yesteryear. They truly tried to put anything oh, you're a black ballet dancer, you're a black this, and they hated it. You know, in the thirties and forties, go back and do the research and they hated it because they felt it was the devaluation of whatever they were doing. And I've used this example to you know white people. I'm like do you talk on your white iPhone? Do you go eat a white burger? You don't go to a white business, you go to a business. You don't have a. It's not black tech, it's just technology. So what is black design? The only thing I can relate to it is how they design these commercials, which I can't stand. They got a white knee-sized commercial and then they got a black knee-sized commercial and I hate, like I absolutely despise, those commercials. But S Alfonso Williams says that you know what is black design and my question how has that manifested in today's society with black design?

Terresa Moses:

This is always an interesting question because there is a black design aesthetic. I think what makes it tricky is when you add it into this pool of capitalism, you extract and I think that's, you know, that's the piece about, like racial capitalism. That's like really interesting to me. That I just can't not see those connections is that racial capitalism is an extractive process, so it's not going to take the full nuance of what it means to be black and all of those things. It's going to just take like the little surface level pieces and trinkets and like you know, oh, you know, black people have afros. Let's add that onto this.

Terresa Moses:

You know, advertisement, and that's the toxic piece about racism is that racism doesn't care about all the nuances of who you are. It cares about what they can sell to you and what they can extract from you. What they can appropriate and make you think is the black experience. When black people know what the black experience is, just like black designers know what the black design aesthetic is. It is full of life, it is colorful, even when it's black and white. It is just different. It has so much soul in it and I don't mean that in like the trite, you know. You know soul way. I mean in the fact that I believe that black people are higher than if you were at shoal. You know, yeah, and, and it's in everything that we do, I, I was watching a tiktok where these uh black people were blindfolded and they had to guess if the singers were black or white.

Terresa Moses:

And this, this woman, she just was getting them. She was just like, nah, this black person ain't got that, they ain't got the struggle. Like this person ain't got the struggle behind that voice, like they are white, and she was just guessing them so well and I and I just was like I feel like she, she really understood what embodied blackness through in in the voice really, really well was, it was. It was very funny to watch, but also you could hear that it was like you're like nah, that I mean they try and too hard, like for black folks, it just comes natural.

Terresa Moses:

And I feel like when capitalism gets a hold of what black people can produce, you get these one off shots, you get these separate lifestyle shots of, like, what it means to be you know quote, unquote normal and then what it means to be black. You know, like it's just, it's, it's these, these, these. You know this dichotomy that they've set up in order to kind of keep us in our, in our place, and also then to benefit from our money and our investment into that product. So it's black design absolutely has an aesthetic, there is absolutely a feeling, there's absolutely spirit behind it and I think it is often imitated and I'm like oh oh, never duplicated, but like it is often. It is often imitated and I think weakens what the black design aesthetic actually is, which is something that I think is is indescribable, when I think, when people try to take it apart, they try to dissect what black the black design aesthetic is. That's what weakens it.

Shawn Rhoder:

You are hitting and I had a question about that. How blackness is constantly redefined is exactly why it's weakened every single time. Like they're like, oh, this means black, does this mean black? No, this is black. And so my experience with that is dealing with entrepreneurs that went to Harvard, went to Stanford, black entrepreneurs and these are my experiences just with these individuals.

Shawn Rhoder:

Dealing with black clients, people that they're trying to connect. I would see them. I see the Stanford guy talk to the guy from Philly and the Philly dude is telling him your product sucks, I only bought it because you're black and it's not that good. And the Stanford dude not understanding, like how to deal with that. And I was able to watch this in about six feet I was he's dropping hard and I'm sitting there watching it and he had been told how to communicate with black people and but he was black to your point. He was weakened and lost his blackness in that institution. So when he got out there with regular people, it was like he couldn't handle it. And then I would be and I'd be stride for stride with him, like, hey, this is our model, this is what we're doing. And then he'd look at me like, well, I'm definitely not going to help you because you can connect with them and you can talk to the people. I know I met some other cats that went to Harvard, that had another, that another startup, and so the same thing kept happening To your point.

Shawn Rhoder:

I feel that sometimes those institutions and you speak about it in the book how they weaken and redefine what blackness is and they tell black people what blackness is and how to extract that, how to use that, and then they come out of those institutions and they prey on our own blackness. And I see it, I saw this and it was. It was incredibly disheartening. It was incredibly disheartening to see young black men who were bright, very intelligent, how they played the black card. But what I felt and I'll say this because I feel it's powerful would call you a nigger in a hot sec and you'd be like man. It felt like a white dude said that to me and, as you stated in the book, we're in different spaces, but where's the death? So my next question the culture in which we have been socialized shows up in every one of our words or thoughts and actions, whether intended or not. How do you feel about that?

Terresa Moses:

I think that our society will have us take all of the things that make up the black experience and label them as something that we should be running away from, label them as something that we should be running away from, things that would keep us from being successful, things that would keep us from and I think about what their idea of success really actually is right. And I think if we understand that, like you know, our Black identity and our Black culture lives in us implicitly is so shameful for an institution like you were just talking about would take who we are and kind of like, put it through the ringer, like you know put it. I just I saw what you were when you were talking. I saw like our experiences and our identity kind of thrown into a washing machine so that it becomes palatable and something that can be consumed by white people and shame, shame on these institutions for doing that. And I think when we talk about like, what makes the black design aesthetic or what makes this so powerful is it's our authenticity.

Terresa Moses:

We can't hide all of the struggles that are running through our DNA. And I mean that with like, not even just like in a magical sense, it's like we have historic trauma that runs through our DNA. And I mean that with like, not even just like a like a magic in a magical sense. It's like we have historic trauma that runs through our DNA and so I don't think we need to run from that.

Terresa Moses:

I think that we do well for our community to express those things more and put those things in the work that we, the work that we do, I would say, to just make sure that we are coming to the design table in an authentic way and allowing that expression that I do believe white supremacy culture would want us to, you know, push down within ourselves and we got to like, get a megaphone and be loud about it, which is why, why which is, I think, is a part of that design aesthetic it feels really loud because I think that's who we are. We, we can't stop shine and we're so bright and, like I said, even when it's like it's something that's like an all black, it still shines. So our authenticity, we have to not run from that but be who, be who we truly are, regardless of what the Eurocentric gates would have us believe we should be.

Shawn Rhoder:

Thank you so much. That was, that was actually amazing. So do you have anything?

Langston Clark :

Langston, dr Moses, I want to one just talk about the design of the book, and so the book is organized in three different parts. Right, you have Black design industry and organizations. You have black design pedagogy. You have black design activism, and you just talked about being loud and who we are and amplifying who we are, and it's interesting that your chapter is amplifying the black voice through design. So I'm wondering if I know the whole book is your baby, but this chapter is your baby, right? And so talk a little bit about what it means to amplify the black voice through design.

Terresa Moses:

Amplifying the black voice through design, I think is a repertory act, ways that to be able to take something that was supposed to hold us down, that was supposed to kill us, and be able to take that thing and bring more voice and more amplification to who we are, is such a powerful thing. And in that chapter I'm using specifically, you know, my typography as a means to be able to do this in movement work that was happening here in Minneapolis and I talk about not only, it's not just my voice, that's in the lettering, that's in the words that are being stated there. I give that credit absolutely to the movement. That wasn't something, those aren't phrases that I came up with, but I just kind of allowed myself to, you know, kind of be used to like, like it's a conduit, to try, and, you know, make those things project.

Terresa Moses:

But I do think that using design as a means to fight against design is like a. It's like a, it's like repertory, it's something you know, it's like the two swords, like I think of, like you know, the Jedi. It's like these powerful forces kind of coming together, like it's like an actual fight and I don't think that when we fight like we don't, we come to win and I feel like you know, white supremacy culture and like our, like societal structures have told us you know how we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to fit into these like little areas, but we come in and we like color outside the lines and, like you know, I don't have a baseline on any of that type. Like it's just I don't know. I just feel like you know they set these structures in place and we constantly outdo, you know, these things that they present to us and I think that's just powerful, yeah, to us, and I think that's just powerful.

Langston Clark :

Yeah, and we're talking about design, right, and earlier in the conversation we kind of gave a definition of what design is overall and for the audience. I want you to know that this book is beautiful. It's not just the text that's in the book, but there's artistry in the book, and so could you give us some sense of the thought process behind the way the book is designed, almost as a piece of art itself?

Terresa Moses:

Yeah, I mean, like I said, if Black people are going to come to the table and do something like it's going to be is going to go all out. So when I was designing, you know how I wanted the book to be aesthetically, I'm, of course, inspired. So I like to say that I'm inspired by the style of Aaron Douglas, but with the impact of Emery Douglas, who was the designer for the Black Panther Party, and everything's in three. It's in three parts. So you see the three hands up there and I was trying to think about what does it look like for these hands to come down and like use their words to break apart or like sort of slash into the white Eurocentric canon and so like that's kind of like they're like pencils that they're holding. But also, I was hoping people kind of saw exact their knives as well, like just kind of like tearing and ripping apart some of these things. And, of course, all the pieces are three sided.

Terresa Moses:

I just the threes were just in my mind as I was designing this, but yeah, I wanted to make sure that people understood intentionally that we were talking about all of these different areas that design affects, which is our industry and, you know, organization. It affects the way that we taught, that we're taught, the pedagogy, the canon, and then then you know, we fight with design through our movement and activism, and so those are those three areas and I tried to show those intentionally in the way that I illustrated the hands and and all the pieces that you see like kind of like show up, uh, mirrored, in the book so it's interesting and I might be looking too deep into the cover of the book, right, but the way these hands are angled, it has to be three different people's hands.

Langston Clark :

So, like you know, the artist is always trying to convey a message with their art. But part of what I saw was is that there's no way that this could be just one person doing it. There's more than one person who is contributing to this work, and I think that's something that stood out to me. So, even if two of the hands belong to one person, I don't know anybody with three hands, right. So it just kind of suggested to me that this isn't work that you could do. You could do on your own, you know Absolutely. My last question, and so I always ask this question and, going back to the origins of the book, you all talked about how you all had this gathering and you had all of these contributors write submissions or whatever, and then kind of evolved into this product here. What is the chapter or maybe even the section of this book that you maybe wanted to get in but couldn't get in? If there was an extra part of this book, what would it be?

Terresa Moses:

I think this question for me is actually is is actually not that hard? Because black design organizations and industry was actually supposed to be two separate chapters. Yeah, it was supposed to be two separate chapters and we couldn't find enough people who kind of wanted to dive into that like traumatic experience of being being in a design organization like AIGA or, you know, aia or whatever that that they wanted to write about. So I would say, industry we, you know, I can find that all day Like people have all kinds of experiences, like working under agencies that are oppressive, but like organizations is just something different.

Terresa Moses:

You have to like give up, give up your time and you're, you know, volunteering, all these things, and you can be really, really hurt. It's like it's like church hurt, like that's kind of how I felt, like it was, and so there just wasn't enough entries. That really, I think, spoke to specific. You know, blackness being like the anti-blackness within organizations. So if I could, you know, add or, you know, extend out this thing, I would really want to extend out like anti-blackness in design organizations and really discussing that, how they kind of need us but don't want us, you know, and that's kind of a, that's a pattern throughout all of the areas but, like I think that, especially in a place where you volunteer your time, it's especially hurtful, Dr Moses, sean, I thank you both for joining us here today.

Langston Clark :

I am not in design, but maybe I am as someone who teaches, maybe my pedagogy is design. I got to think, I'm rethinking this, but I don't think I could have related to you in the same way that Sean has given you all this mutual experience, and so I thank you both for joining us here today.

Shawn Rhoder:

I want to thank you too. This is my first time ever hosting and doing this. I hope your artists appreciate your time. First time ever hosting and doing this, I hope your artists appreciate your time. Uh, dr moses, you know. Congratulations on everything.

Terresa Moses:

Wish you the best, thank you all, thank you so much.

Langston Clark :

Thank you for joining this edition of entrepreneurial appetite. If you like the episode, you can support the show by becoming one of our founding 55 patrons, which gives you access to our live discussions and bonus materials, or you can subscribe to the show. Give us five stars and leave a comment.