Entrepreneurial Appetite

Metamen: Mike Johnson on Redefining Masculinity and Relationships

• Mike Johnson • Season 5 • Episode 49

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What happens when a reality TV star turns author and entrepreneur? Find out as Mike Johnson takes us through his compelling transformation from being on The Bachelorette to launching his influential projects, including his book "Making the Love You Want" and the groundbreaking MetaMan initiative. Mike opens up about the significant personal and professional growth he experienced, shedding light on the evolution from his earlier initiative, Feeling Seen, to MetaMan's focus on reimagining masculinity and addressing pivotal issues facing men today.

Ever wondered how societal expectations shape sexual preferences and dynamics within relationships? We tackle the often-misunderstood practice of pegging, asking whether a man's desire for pegging reflects his sexuality or disrupts marital power dynamics. Certified sexologists weigh in, providing essential insights into fostering healthy sexual relationships by understanding and respecting individual preferences. We also explore how financial decision-making can transform from traditional roles to collaborative approaches, emphasizing the value of mutual expertise and respect.

We're not just redefining masculinity; we're talking metamasculinity, blending traditional and postmodern traits for more balanced relationships. Through real-life examples, Mike illustrates the importance of feeling seen and heard, both personally and professionally. Learn about Oshun, a soap brand aligning with emotional and physical cleanliness, and hear how Mike’s involvement with Notley and its diverse, intellectual environment has expanded his perspectives. Join us as we explore these transformative ideas and celebrate the importance of empathy, strategic communication, and balanced dialogues in creating social change.

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Langston Clark:

What's up everybody? Once again, this is Langston Clark, the founder and organizer of Entrepreneurial Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting Black businesses. And today we have another interview with my homeboy, mike Johnson, who is the author of Making the Love you Want. I actually did an interview with Mike, like it might have been two or three years ago, and we had a special guest host, jesse Moore. Two or three years ago, and we had a special guest host, jesse Moore, we interviewed him about the book Making the Love you Want, and Mike has gone through some continued evolution since his time on the Bachelorette and has founded something new, this new concept, this new idea called MetaMan. And so today we're going to have Mike talk to us about where he is now in his career, in his business, in his life as an entrepreneur. And so, mike, I was just wondering, like post what, five years since the Bachelorette, what's going on with Mike Johnson?

Mike Johnson:

Thank you for having me. I appreciate being here. Yeah, I think it was about three years ago, jesse, and you interviewed me for your podcast Love to see. Love to see it still moving forward. And thank you for saying I've had continued uh growth. That's huge. That's huge because I think uh a lot of my peers in that space, you know we get to do something like be on a tv show at that level. Back then in 2019, it was the second biggest uh unscripted tv, only behind shark tank really at the time which I didn't know, but I think it's probably a good thing.

Mike Johnson:

I didn't know that going in and so, but that's how big the reach was Like. I've been to other countries, multiple other countries and get stopped, recognized, and so for you to say continued growth, I really appreciate that because for me that's exactly what this has been over the last five years continued growth Since we last spoken, since my last book. You mentioned Making the Love you Want. Thank you for that. And now making deep, necessary strides in metaman or metamasky leniency and what that means for not only me but us as a society in the Western culture.

Langston Clark:

And I had the honor of being interviewed for you know your metaMan analysis and it was interesting that I actually learned a lot going through it and we had I think we had like a really deep conversation about like what's going on with men in a society. Yes, so it's really interesting, even for me as somebody who works in higher education the level of conscientiousness that the women have in terms of like their work and the way that they're organized and the way that they structure their lives to get things done is not the same among a lot of the men, and so the conversations that you're having about what it means to be a metaman are really timely and important. And I also think about, like my friends who are in my age range, because I just turned 40. So I'm thinking guys who are like mid 30s to early 40s and it seems like dudes are either really super successful or dudes are just not successful at all, and there doesn't seem to be this middle space where guys are just regular dudes who go to work and have their life together.

Langston Clark:

You either got an MBA from Duke and own two or three properties, or you're an alcoholic who got divorced and gets to see your kid on the weekends, right, and so I think that you're raising some important questions and putting some interesting topics out there in the world. But before we get into what MetaMan is, talk to us about your other effort that you're no longer doing, called Feeling Seen, and how you went from that transition of doing Feeling Seen as a certified sexologist into really like focusing and honing in on being metaman and define for us what a metaman is. So let's start with Feeling Seen, certified sexologist, and then your transition into metaman.

Mike Johnson:

To start with Feeling Seen, I'll have to start with being a sexologist, and so after my last relationship about a decade ago, two years after that, I started to go to school to become a sex coach certified sex coach, and then I went on TV and post that I had an incredible amount of experiences, way more than the average person in that field, and so I wanted to go back to school. So I went to school for three years to become a board certified sexologist by the American Board of Sexology, and that post-school I didn't know in which route I wanted to go. I knew I didn't want to trade my time for money, and so I didn't want to become a therapist and we need therapists. I love therapists. It's just trading time for money is the only reason why I chose not to do that, and so I started.

Mike Johnson:

My initial thought was to have a community, a community to make those feel seen, and so that's what we call it a feeling seen. We did it for about 18 months. It was a newsletter. Every single Thursday made great strides and, as we continue to go, the entire process of the newsletter was it was a Q&A style, so we would allow people to ask questions and myself a neurologist and a clinical licensed family practice therapist. The three of us combined together would answer the questions.

Mike Johnson:

I started to notice that the questions became increasingly more difficult for us as educators. Two male, one woman, all American, one living overseas. I think that that is important to say, as I learned through feeling seen oftentimes, our persona and or our lived perception is oftentimes how we see the lens of everything through, and so it's important to say that it was two male, one woman, two living in America, one living overseas, but all three Americans. That limits us in some ways, and in other ways it expands us. That limits us in some ways and then in other ways, it expands us, and so, being someone who's spent literally half of my adult life overseas, I think that I have an expanded and more nuanced understanding of what growing up as an adult is, and so, in working with Feeling Seen, the very thing that I wanted to fight against I became I mean, the title of it is Feeling Seen and I started to notice that our audience will get incredibly annoyed with content that they feel that wasn't for them. And what I mean by that is so easy.

Mike Johnson:

Example we're living in 2024. Some people don't prefer monogamy, some people do, some people prefer what I would call a designer relationship. Bringing those things up, if someone asked a question to us at Feeling Seen, we would answer it without judgment. We would answer from an aspect of discern, with safety being first right Safety of self and safety of partner. And so we did have our ethics that we would always check, and it became more increasingly difficult as we would get the community that we were building. The expectation wasn't there and I didn't give that expectation.

Langston Clark:

So when you say you didn't give the expectation, you mean the community wasn't clearly aware of the values that you all were, the ethic that you all were bringing to feeling seen, and so there was a disconnect between the service you all were trying to provide and what the community actually wanted.

Mike Johnson:

Yeah, I think there's an aspect to equity that I'm really big in. I'm really big on equity. I personally I've I've said this, I'll say it here I believe in equality for some things, but I believe in equity for everything. And that's a difficult pill to swallow for a lot of us and as it pertains to relationships and, coming from an aspect of a sexologist, we must pay attention to what someone's observes, their feelings, their needs and their request. And oftentimes it's difficult.

Mike Johnson:

And I feel that in our society today if in a partnership, a life partnership with someone, they may either dismiss their own feelings and hoard that, or they may have the courage to tell you and that the person that they tell may not be able to have the space to discuss that. And so that's what feeling seen was becoming, and I was deeply in thought, ruminating on all of the questions that we received. I mean the very first question and the reason. I say this as a black man. I'm 36 years old, I grew up in Texas and I was military, so you can kind of paint the picture of my persona. The very first question that we had on feeling seen was my best friend's husband wants her to peg him. Is that gay, or should she get a divorce?

Langston Clark:

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Say the question again. Was the question from a man or a woman?

Mike Johnson:

the question was from a woman. The woman that questioned it was speaking for her girlfriend who was in a marriage right and she, her girlfriend, was in a, and I say girlfriend as in girl, that's a friend, right, right. Her girlfriend was a. She was in a heterosexual marriage to a man and he desired to be pegged, and the girlfriend, or the, the wife of that man, shall I say the wife of that husband. She was apprehensive, she was nervous and she was considering his sexuality right.

Langston Clark:

So I don't think everybody knows what pegged is oh, okay, okay, sorry.

Mike Johnson:

So, uh, pegging is, in this example specifically, a man being penetrated by an inanimate object, a finger or more more gay, is the desire and the pleasure of an another man, say of same sex, penetrating you with their own connected lingam right so there is a slight difference in the two and this is what I'm discussing as a sexologist.

Mike Johnson:

The fact of the matter is a man's pleasure point, the second biggest is in his anus, and if that man likes that, that doesn't make him gay. It makes him aware of where it makes him aware and it makes him in tune to his body. And it's a difficult thing because oftentimes our black sisters that's gay, and gay has a different definition, and so explaining these things can become incredibly difficult because of our own blinders that we have. Yeah.

Langston Clark:

So, yeah, I definitely see how you're saying. Like the ethic and the approach that you all have as people who are Take a professional lens to what it means to have a healthy sex relationship is very different than a mainstream person who has their own values, their own ethic, their own framework for understanding what a healthy sex relationship is, or even like what's perceived to be like a power dynamic in sex, right, and so like we, we live in in this. We live in a society where I think power and sex are conflated a lot, but that may not have been the case in like every society that has ever existed in terms of like sex relationships, right, that just might be what we're living in oftentimes when a man gets pegged by his woman let's say she had you know to paint a vivid picture.

Mike Johnson:

Let's say she was wearing a toy and she was pegging her man that can mess with the psyche in terms of a power dynamic you know, that woman may feel you can't talk to me like that, no more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know so it absolutely does.

Langston Clark:

You hit the head on the nail with that yeah, yeah, um, talk about, like, I don't think a lot of people know what a certified sexologist is. So what, what do sexologists do? Um, and I also think it's really important as we think about, like we, we like transition to the conversation about metaman, because one of the conversations that we talked about in our in our discussion was the, the switch that happened with the feminist movement, where there was training programs for women to get in, or access programs for women to get into a lot of different professions that were dominated by men, but that didn't actually happen in the reverse yes um, and so now we see in workforce development, the steering of mentors, different certifications, and so I think it's interesting that you have chosen to get a certification as a sexologist, which is not something like I hear dudes talking about.

Langston Clark:

I'm going to get certified in sexology, right, and so talk a little bit about that and what that means and what it qualifies you to do.

Mike Johnson:

Great question. Yeah, in the most simplistic terms, my entire focus as a sexologist is to help with individuals and people's sentient beings' mental and sexual well-being. In a nutshell, mental and sexual well-being. I think that they are interconnected more than just the vagus nerve, more than just the vagus nerve. And as a man, it's definitely funny to be in this space, because oftentimes in this space we hear the most important six inches is between your head right or in between your ears. And as men we are, I can give you a million and three different stats of how we come up shy, how we're a bit not necessarily inadequate, but delusional. And it is what we are doing. And for a straight man I'm speaking as us. Uh, that's the other thing about being a sex. I was really difficult at times. You gotta be, you gotta ensure who you know your audience is.

Mike Johnson:

You want your respect yeah um, but as straight men is this? That's how I'm going to speak throughout the rest of this call. It is disheartening when you find the truth.

Langston Clark:

Pause. I need you to start that over again and say as straight men it's disheartening, okay, thank you. Okay, it's disheartening Okay.

Mike Johnson:

Thank you as straight men. It's disheartening when you find out the facts, when you find out the studies, when you read the studies as it pertains to pleasure, as it pertains to sex, as it pertains to dopamine, as it pertains to oxytocin, as it pertains to orgasm.

Mike Johnson:

They're not in our favor. We're looking bad breath, as the England would say, and it is incredibly weird for me as a male to be in this space. I remember being in the Air Force and I chose to become a victim's advocate that's what they call it. It's like a 40 hours of training and at the end of it you get a phone for in a particular weekend, like it's like 10 people, and every weekend is someone else's where they have a phone. The phone, if you have that phone, if that bad boy ring, you must pick up. You got to be there for the person on the other end because they're only calling that line if they need someone after they've been through a sexual assault, and so we have incredibly specific training and I was the only male on the entire base yeah um, the reason why I think that goes back to a little bit of my personal past, of what led me to this.

Mike Johnson:

Um, you know the reason I care so much about this. So I've been in this field for quite some time. Leading up to it I'm actually I was trained at a matriarchal school and becoming a board certified sexologist, so I have I think that goes into a bit of it as well. And now we're talking about we're going to be talking about metaman, and so I'm basically kind of balanced the two as I feel like men and women. Both we have been living on polar opposites and almost one could say polarity within, and for me I've always felt in a strong urge as I've lost four friends to suicide. When we look at the numbers, they don't look good for us as a collective, nor us individually, as men especially, and so, just thinking in deep thought around this, I wanted to bridge the two together so that instead of being something of polarity, we become something of synthesis in union so.

Langston Clark:

So what are the things that, like, are synthesized together? What do you mean when you say the synthesis? What are the two things that are synthesizing together?

Mike Johnson:

I think a lot of what metaman is is learning to have a conversation around. Are you more egalitarian or paternalism? Or paternalism and you know that word, that P word is really has a negative connotation as it writes down our society. I think what's not being discussed is that some of our women sisters prefer a paternalistic aspect with some nuance to it.

Langston Clark:

Boss, when you say paternalistic, do you mean patriarchal?

Mike Johnson:

No.

Langston Clark:

Okay. When you say paternalistic what do you mean by paternalistic? Paternalistic what do?

Mike Johnson:

you mean by paternalistic?

Langston Clark:

so paternalistic, I'm discussing this is part of the interview, though, so like no we outside of the pause. Just want to be clear go ahead. I'm sorry in metaman.

Mike Johnson:

I have 12 axioms, okay, and number 10 talks about care. Listen, lead in that order. The way that a metaman cares is from a paternalistic aspect, so there's a lot of care that goes into that. The way that this person cares isn't as much nurturing as it is setting boundaries, being there for you and uplifting you with a skillful means in order to do the next step to get where you want to go. That's what I mean by paternalistic. It's rooted in what are the next steps for you, right?

Langston Clark:

How can we help you, right, vers, versus nurturing you, um, and cuddling you yeah both of those have a special place so when I hear paternalistic, I think about parentage, like being raised, and that there's like an interesting power dynamic where, like I don't want my wife to be my mom and I'm sure she's going to be her dad and so, like I, I think when I hear paternalistic, I feel like somebody treat you, treat me like a little kid. Do you know what I mean?

Mike Johnson:

yes, um, thank you. Let me go further. So here's a few examples of what I mean by paternalistic and egalitarian within a relationship decision making, uh, communication style. So, for example, I've been told that I speak in an advanced way in terms of, not intelligence, but in terms of emotions and knowing what my emotions are, knowing when to say them and how to say them in that moment. So that's a communication style, versus holding that in and being more of a rock, which is more of a paternalistic aspect. Division of labor, financial chores or financial control, the emotional support when there is children, when there isn't children, I mean these are things that we discuss. These are things that are within a relationship. You had a question yeah.

Langston Clark:

So, like I, I think, I think a clear, a clear explanation would be like let's do, let's stick with the paternalism and the egalitarianism. So that's the spectrum, right? Yes, so what does a paternalistic um money relationship look like versus an egalitarian money relationship look like?

Mike Johnson:

great, great question. So I'll take me for example. You mentioned earlier the roles that we play in the workforce and how there has been an increase of women coming into previously only male dominated roles, but not necessarily on the opposite end of that right and as of in the financial field, there's the financial bro to finance bros. There's more men in the financial field. Women can be in the financial field, women are in the financial field and women thrive in the financial field. What I am saying is based on your question about the financial aspects versus paternalism and egalitarian. If you're in a relationship, two-part relationship if one person has some form of education or training around finances, that person may may take a lead on financial decisions within the household. That can be woman, because just your gender doesn't say that you can't dictate what finances go where?

Mike Johnson:

yeah, yeah and so, who may have experience in that field or a big thing, who chooses to take accountability in a particular field, and oftentimes, if a person is to take accountability in a particular field financial specifically they're going to have boundaries, because that's how they care. They want to ensure we get to where we said we were going to go, and so, therefore, there's boundaries placed on what we can and cannot do.

Langston Clark:

Right Versus the person who's the expert in the field, who's like setting those boundaries?

Mike Johnson:

Yes, mostly, yeah, yes, yes, field, who's like setting those boundaries? Yes, mostly, yeah, yes, yes, now in an egalitarian way of this exact same conversation. It's more of a a shared conversation, a shared communication, back and forth. How do you want to do that? How do you want to do that? It's all about mutual respect and collaboration, right, reciprocity, collaboration by all means necessary in a metaman, which will be the more evolved version of that. I feel, in a metaman aspect of this exact same conversation, versus paternalism and egalitarian as it pertains to a couple in financial roles would be. It would lean, paternalistic and yet have emotional efficacy to bring equity to what the other partner is feeling and needing.

Langston Clark:

Yeah. So the way I kind of understand it is like let's say that there's a guy who's in finance and he like goes hard into finance, and there's a woman who is a teacher right, a teacher doesn't make as much money as the man in finance, whereas traditionally the guy who's in finance it's like highly patriarchal, right, and the buck stops with him in terms of what we're doing with the money, because I make more money. But as a metaman who's making more money, it's like, yes, I have the greater expertise when it comes to finance, but that doesn't mean I'm being authoritative about what we do with the money. I consider the feelings of my wife, who maybe makes less money than I do, but I'm not the one totally making, like, the whole decision, but there's some default things that come to me because that's literally my area of expertise. Yes, it's interesting, like because my, my, my doctorate is in education. Um, you know, I I have it in my mind when my wife and I have kids that like I'm probably going to be, I'm going to be the PTA parent, like I'm going to be the one like, oh, we're not going to that school, we're not going to that school.

Langston Clark:

And my wife has said, like Langston, when it comes to the education stuff, I don't want you pulling out your PhD card just saying, just cause you have a PhD in education, that you get to find a decision, and so, like I see how that could play out and I see how it's necessary, right, because I can't just be like listen, at the end of the day, I got the doctorate in this I'm making a final decision.

Langston Clark:

I got to consider what my wife sees, because I may have blind spots even in my expertise, right, absolutely. So I have to consider what my wife's experience was versus what my experience is. Let's say, we have athletic kids, right, my wife is the one who ran track in college, so she might be best suited to help the kid navigate the ins and outs of like how they would pick what school they go to if they're being recruited, because she'd been recruited before, right, and so there it's. Yeah, I really kind of like the idea that, although someone might be best suited because of expertise and life experience, that we still respect and regard our partner and how we make decisions about, like whatever it is that we're doing.

Mike Johnson:

No beautiful. I love that example because oftentimes we were in our Western culture as a 2024, we're more so leaning towards the egalitarian and men and women. And in a coupled heterosexual relationship a woman may feel that she should be automatically in the children's education more so than her male counterpart. But if that male counterpart has a doctorate in education, it may make more sense for them and their unity for upward mobility, for him to have more say around that area. Um, and in our traditional terms that would be, that would have been in a paternalistic aspect, that would have gone strictly to the woman, but in metamaskulinity there brings in equity for one's lived experience for one, education um, and furthermore, outside of equity, there is space, there's mental space, equanimity, calmness for a two-partner relationship to thrive yeah, but just tell us what is a metaman, like what is a metaman?

Mike Johnson:

yeah, uh, metaman is metamasculinity. Metaman is, uh, beyond, you know, as in meta. So think about captain america. Okay, captain america, his persona, what we think of him from all the shows. He's really brave, kind of corny, um vanilla, um, always says the right thing. He's a leader. That's kind of the modern. I'm sorry, not the modern. That's the traditional patriarchal aspect, right. And think of Deadpool. Deadpool is an asshole, he doesn't, he's an anti-hero. Even though he's a hero, he says how he feels, doesn't really care to do anything. That's postmodernism, right. So we have modern post-modern yeah.

Mike Johnson:

and so, with modern on one side and post-modern on the other side, metamasculinity says, hey, can we not bring these two together and we move as as one solid unit? Versus you have a job but you also cook and clean. I pay more of the bills but I make less. You know, we're it's more of a conversation, more space. Easy example black women or graduate twice the rate of any other person in America. Black men make the least amount. So we can see from a very easy example without something like a metaman you know, I hope one day someone does a metafeminine without something like that we're going to have, we're going to lose more of our black sisters to white men.

Langston Clark:

Yeah, but I don't even know if sisters will be getting chose like that.

Langston Clark:

you know because they're also they're also the least likely to be married. And so, like it's like we, you know, I, I definitely see the need for like the metaness of our relationships so that we can have like solid families, do you know? I mean understanding compassionate families, and I, you know, I actually kind of like, really like the idea of meta, because one spouse making more than the other doesn't diminish the other spouse necessarily. I started watching the Balloon Pop dating, yes, and it's really interesting. I actually think it's fascinating. I actually really appreciate that show because it's not just like.

Mike Johnson:

It's straight to it.

Langston Clark:

It's not these tropes, because it's not just like, it's not these tropes Like they're definitely like some Kevin Samuels type dudes on there and some like Kevin Samuels type woman I want a high value man who does this but there's also like some really authentic examples, I think, of what you might say are like meta people, yes, who are coming together in like an equity type of, yes, relationship and I actually think, just at a glance, the people that I see like getting together, that like actually look like they might work together, are are working in like this, this equity framework for what they want their relationships to be, and they don't expect these particular boxes for the person to fit in. They're they're trying to fit in with one another and I actually really appreciate that about that show.

Mike Johnson:

That synthesis is what you're discussing. Yeah, they're becoming one, they're becoming a union. I appreciate it for the exact same reasons. I was watching a bit of it yesterday. I saw it on my phone, and the guy had he did have what I would perceive as my the people that I'm around to think that that was outside of the norm of the box for what a male should do, a straight male should do. He had the one earring that had. It came down a little bit. It had like maybe an inch or two charm on it or whatever.

Mike Johnson:

Yeah, and all of the women but one popped the balloon and they all said you know, you look nice, but this earring I can't do and he was kind of alluding to you're placing me in a box because of an inanimate object that I wear, and the one woman that didn't pop her balloon sidebar, she was the baddest, which is just a coincidence the baddest from, obviously, my own personal opinion yeah no, I take that back.

Langston Clark:

Actually, we have proven via science that we understand what beauty is, so I take that back no, I'm not even going to debate you on that, because we'll be here three hours discussing the science they do got science though. I understand the whole symmetry stuff.

Mike Johnson:

Symmetry. Yes, symmetry gives a point. That's a point, though, or science Anyway. And the one lady that didn't pop her balloon she just asked. She said can you explain the earring? Since everyone is talking about the earring, and he felt heard, in that moment, you could tell, a light bulb went off like wow. He was like wow, someone's giving me the opportunity to feel seen, and that's all we're saying. And so his story was simple. It was he wears two chains one of his um, one for his daughter that didn't make it she, she died and one for his daughter that did make it. He didn't explain the story. He says the earring is for the one of his daughter that didn't make it she died and one for his daughter that did make it. He didn't explain the story. He says the earring is for the one of his daughters that didn't make it, and so, whether we like it or not, that was his story. And so that woman said I appreciate you telling me, thank you.

Mike Johnson:

And then, boom, they made it work, and so I think that explains it beautifully.

Langston Clark:

that was a good analogy so, um, mike, you have, you went from from feeling singing to this framework of meta masculinity and meta men, so, like, let's talk about feeling clean, because you have like another um, another business that you're you're working on called I want to say it the right way Oshun right, which is, which is a soap brand. So tell us a little bit about what you're doing to help people feel clean, in addition to the work that you're doing helping people feel seen.

Mike Johnson:

That was a beautiful bridge. I liked that one. Right there I got to. I got to coin that one. That was good, that was really good. Actually, I like to consider myself a project manager versus a founder, and it goes to my personality of the meekness and the humbleness that I feel in that I often, oftentimes, I feel that when we say say entrepreneur and or founder or CEO, it's a bit inflating, so for me I just prefer the term project manager. And within Oshun, it's an ocean for the American audience, the American tongue, shall I say.

Mike Johnson:

I was in Costa Rica with my girlfriend for a few months, enjoying the beauty of Costa Rica and honestly, man, I came down to where I didn't want to go outside, no more.

Mike Johnson:

I completely shattered my confidence and the reason was because in the rainforest I'm allergic to a lot of stuff out there and my skin was covered in flakes and blood from the eczema patches that were growing all over my body and I was using Irish spring soap and in the elements out there.

Mike Johnson:

And when I came back to America to figure out what was going on because, I mean, I was in a beautiful country with my beautiful girlfriend and we had just came from the Nicoya Peninsula, which is one of the five blue zones in the entire world, and what you learn is that social bonds is one of the most important things for us as humans. And I was doing the exact opposite. I was isolating myself, and so when I came back to the States, I immediately saw a dermatologist and an allergist. The allergist came and told me that in 20 years of his career, I'm the top 10 worst that he's ever seen. Wow, and and. Via doing that, doing my research, I came to find that you know, what I put on my skin is incredibly important. I know that sounds obvious, but prior to I was going to the store and grabbing my Dove bar or grabbing the Dove liquid soap or whatever in case whatever, pretty much was right there. It was more muscle memory versus what's best for me. Yeah.

Mike Johnson:

Because I automatically assume what's best for me is what is going to be given to me. That's unfortunate, in our country that doesn't happen, and so you know, doing the research, gold milk soap is really good for people with sensitive skin, with dry skin. Furthermore, research, you find that the type of breed is important and, furthermore, research, you find that the type of breed is important and the best breed for and I say the best, the best what that means is they have the highest fatty content yeah, gives you a lot of cream and moisture and lather Hydrating the skin is Nubian goats, anglo Nubian goats, and so that's how I got into that. Just honestly wanted to correct my skin, and if I someone who wrote a book on making the love you want, which is about self-love, I felt that my self-love was, in part, needing equity and I was hurting. I wanted to create a brand that spoke to timeless confidence, and ocean is like a love letter to the skin that was poetic.

Langston Clark:

Ocean is like a love letter to the skin. Is that? Is that gonna be like the, the um, the tagline for the brand? A love letter to the skin you know?

Mike Johnson:

uh, just like kamala harris when she was her her tagline for her run. It only came about because she said it in front of an audience and they gave her the feedback that she should make it. So should I make that the tagline? Yeah?

Langston Clark:

yeah, yeah, I can see right now a love letter to the skin. I can see the lady say that in the commercial right now Perfect. That's hilarious. We have a lot of like common experiences, um, so you did it. You did the bachelorette in 2019. Yes, I might have met you in like 2017, maybe 2018.

Mike Johnson:

No, it was 2016 going into 2017, 2016 going into 2017. Yeah man.

Langston Clark:

so I met you early in my time here in san antonio, yeah, because we were at um, it was a new year's post, new year's um, what is that thing we do at new year's vision board session? I remember that it's a vision vision board session and, um, that's where we met and then we started going to Bible study together. Yes.

Langston Clark:

At the journey with Dimitri. Yes, and so we've been cool ever since. Yes, and so that's kind of like the first common experience we had. And then there was this organization called Notley. That was started by these really rich people in Austin and then they were expanding to San Antonio but then decided San Antonio just wasn't working and so they decided just to focus on, you know, austin and maybe some other places.

Langston Clark:

But I had the opportunity for, I think, two or three months to be a Notley fellow here in San Antonio, and you have since decided to do the Notley Fellowship in Austin. So can you talk a little bit about one? The importance as an entrepreneur, you continuing to be a student and learn from others, but then also like being on the lookout for opportunities for people to pour into you and develop, and what? What has your notly experience been, because I've had a few other notly fellows on the show before, but just kind of give me some insights into what the experience has been like so far for you first I would say this is why community is so important and the people that you keep and I I consider you an incredibly important part of the community that I keep.

Mike Johnson:

So thank you because because for you I wouldn't be a Notley, so I appreciate that. First and foremost, notley for me has been you're not wrong, but I just don't say it like that they started by some rich people. They are very wealthy. Truly, to me, notley has been an incredible experience of expanding my brain and expanding my thought. So, for example, we've had you know White House fellows come and speak to us that you know work at the White House right now, with what's going on in the White House, so hearing those conversations. We've had people, scientists, like top five employees at Tesla and Neuralink and SpaceX come and speak to us. We've had CFOs of billionaire companies speak to us. We have had judges speak to us. We have spoken to those that are in nonprofit spaces come and speak to us from all sides of the nonprofit sector. So the experience has been wonderful for working a muscle of things that I may have not have seen or noticed or paid attention to.

Mike Johnson:

I think that the experience shatters even more of the notion that I walk in with as a Black man. I really mean that and that's an ode to the notly. We don't have that many men, but we do have. It's pretty diverse inside of it. It's like only three of us guys in there. So when I'm talking about diversity, I'm talking about diversity of race. Really good job of that, and it further dismantles my my own lived experience a bit more. Oftentimes in our lived experience, something can become permanent, and so we have to create new neural pathways for how to see things, and so Nali is helping with that.

Mike Johnson:

But in the simple terms, nali is cool. I got a dude that's worth a lot in my back pocket, not saying he's going to give me anything, but he is down to hold space for me and have a meeting with me.

Langston Clark:

yeah, and that's that holds its weight in gold so you said, like notley has shifted some things for you, um, as a black man, and kind of like maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe disentangled, deconst, deconstructed some things that have existed in your life, can you talk a little bit more about like what those, what, those have been?

Mike Johnson:

It wouldn't be just Nali, it would be just my experience until, but most recently, nali for sure I mean I think going choosing the Air Force over the Army, for example, was the first one. Coming a financial advisor, then going on the bachelor, those three prior helped to come to this. What I mean specifically is, for example, the atrocities that I and my brethren face. For those that can, and, I will say, should, do more for those that face atrocities, do more for those that face atrocities.

Mike Johnson:

Oftentimes it's the language in the, in the, in how it is said, that doesn't get across and doesn't get heard, and so for I remember asking specifically we were, we had a judge on he's a judge out and, um, he's, no, he's a judge here in austin, but he, uh, he's a white guy but he speaks spanish, so he goes a lot to a lot of the spanish communities in texas and I was listening to him and I asked um, I'm not gonna be specific, I don't want to be specific. I asked one of the people there. I said well, you know how do you choose what? You decide to help, because you have the capability to help yeah so how do you choose what to help?

Mike Johnson:

Because, obviously, if you help everything, you will be broke. No one wants that. I don't want that for you. I don't want that for myself. I became that wealthy and then became broke because I helped everyone. I do want the benefit for myself and for others, though, which is a difference, and what I learned was not via the words that was said, but via the words that were specifically not said was I don't have and I'm saying this as a black man for those, because I've always been in the place of why don't they just help out? I've always been in the victim aspect of that, yeah, and I furthermore learned that me as a man, I don't see myself volunteering or donating money to women that have a hard time with their, with their menstrual cramps, for example. Yeah.

Mike Johnson:

I just don't see that at all and I don't mean that to be rude whatsoever. I'm saying. What I'm trying to convey is that that's out of sight out of mind, right, completely out of sight, out of mind. It's not your experience, it's not my experience. And so.

Mike Johnson:

Nali has really helped me to understand that a bit more and to realize that if we're coming at it from an aspect of I'm a victim, you're an asshole, help me out. Two things happen. One they feel attacked and they are literally out of sight, out of mind. They may see something on the news all day, every day, but they've never been affected by it. Yeah, and so what I have, what I have learned, and what I am learning is to is that our words, the English language that we use, it's just a programming tool. It's just a programming tool, yeah, and we must understand who our audience is, who can benefit us, who can help us, who can bring more equity? And it's not I'm not saying it's always a white man, that is not what I am saying. Yeah.

Mike Johnson:

I'm saying whoever it is that can bring equity to us. We must understand that audience and understand that we don't want to put them in a corner and we need to move. We need to use our words in a certain way to enact change. And I use the term in metaman which, as you know, avant-garde defiance it's a people often think that it's an oxymoron because of ourarde is a positive connotation and defiance has a negative connotation. And what I mean by that avant-garde defiance, especially in this category in this conversation, as it pertains to not only what I've learned To be defiant for sure for what you feel is right for the benefit of self and for others, make sure it's rooted in the right places, but be a vanguard with that and be innovative yeah, I think it comes down to like really understanding people and human psychology is that people who feel attacked, they they get in fight or flee, they're not in help mode.

Langston Clark:

That's not what they're not in help mode.

Mike Johnson:

They're not. They're gonna be like look, these people hate me anyway. This is why I owe money for the definition of three generations or more to have that money. This is why no one knows who they are. Because of behavioral psychology, we that don't have that hate them and they know that, and so they're terrified of us.

Langston Clark:

That's what happens hate is a strong word.

Mike Johnson:

And they know that, and so they're terrified of us. That's what happens. Hate is a strong word. Hate is a strong word, but I understand what you mean.

Langston Clark:

Yeah, it's not that every single one of them hate us. I wouldn't say that we love them.

Mike Johnson:

Yeah, we don't love them for sure. But oftentimes the people that, the children and the lineage that come from old money, they are the. We can look at the data to show that, to prove this. Oftentimes their enemy is not us. Their enemy is the higher middle class, the two percenters. Yeah.

Mike Johnson:

Not the below 98 percenters, right, they want to help the below 98 percenters. 98%ers Right, they want to help the below 98%ers and that 2%, those people that are making like between 400 to like 10 million. Those are the ones that are their enemy, because they don't want their spot to be taken from them. Right.

Mike Johnson:

You see what I'm saying. They actually they give money and they give resources to the absolute core, but to that middle class between like 400 million I'm sorry, 400,000 to like 10 million, that's the one that they class between like 400 million, I'm sorry, 400 000 to like 10 million, that's the one that they don't like that's interesting.

Langston Clark:

That's we got a whole. We gotta have a whole other conversation about that. That that's the really interesting thing. Um, and so, mike, I want to be respectful of your time and, like you know that we we kind of started off. Kind of started off. No, we started off as a book club, and so I know you read, we talked about books all the time. So talk about a book that you're currently reading that is inspiring you on your journey, and then maybe tell us a little bit about are you going to write a metaman book. So first talk about a book that you're currently reading and then talk about your vision for a possible metaman book in the future well, brother, since I have you, I want to say thank you for the book that you recommended.

Mike Johnson:

You know what I'm talking about. I definitely read it. Uh 100, so thank you for that. I would say a book that I I just finished reading, because I'm being pretty adventurous with my reading. I just just finished this book called Cupid's Poison Arrow.

Langston Clark:

Hold it up a little bit higher so we can see the, so we can see the author a little bit higher up. There we go. Okay, there we go, all right.

Mike Johnson:

Yes, cupid's Poison Arrow from Habit to Harmony and Sexual Relationships by Dr Marnia Robinson. The reason I'm speaking of this book right now is because it goes into the I brought this up earlier incredibly short, but it goes into the neural pathways and it goes into the chemicals within our brain and it talks about how dopamine plays a role, and I won't get into too much detail. But it goes into how, in a new relationship, we were flooded with dopamine and oxytocin and that it's not that it goes away, it's that the way that dopamine works. When something now is no longer novelty but becomes the norm, we don't feel that dopamine the same way we used to feel it, and it's a really difficult thing for relationships.

Mike Johnson:

This book argues that we are not monogamous as a species. It's something that we choose to do, which she prefers that we choose it. For the record, if you know, for those that may consider reading it, I'll tell you that our front, she chooses to be monogamous, she prefers that. She thinks that's a better for society, and she gives exercises on how to be, but or, and shall I say, she argues the chemicals that we have in our brain that make it incredibly difficult. So, for easy example, when I get into an argument with my partner or we're debating over the same thing for months on end and I'm pretty pissed off. I now reticular activation system, that's a part of our brain. Reticular activation system, that's a part of our brain. I all I see in a simple term. If I'm looking for a red car, I want to buy a red ford focus.

Mike Johnson:

Yeah, all I see is red ford focuses on the road right right, that's how the reticular activation system is.

Mike Johnson:

So if I'm pissed off because my girl left the toilet I don't know down, for example, that's all I'm going to be paying attention to and seeing Right, and that oxytocin and that dopamine is being triggered within that. It's a great book. To have an understanding, a better understanding, give yourself some compassion, some grace, yeah. But then, as a sexologist, the reason I also became a sexologist, I also mentioned like I lost four friends in suicide because I'm a firm believer that it's not only mind, body, spirit, it's mind, body, spirit, sex and they're all connected.

Mike Johnson:

Yeah, that's my whole dial, and this book connects them quite a bit.

Langston Clark:

Okay, so let's talk about the Medi-Man book.

Mike Johnson:

You can write a book for metaman yeah, man, it's uh, I was working on it yesterday, you know it's, it's something that I, I work on every day. I write about it every day. It's uh, as of right now. You know how I? I'm an entrepreneur, but I don't like the term entrepreneur, I don't like the term founder, I like the term project manager. Uh, in writing a book, I also don't want the term entrepreneur, I don't like the term founder, I like the term project manager. In writing a book, I also don't want to give myself that, I don't want that pressure right now. And the reason I say that is because it's not my sole focus. Once I'm in a space to where it can become my sole focus, I would say I'm writing a book. Am I writing a book? Yes, but it's not my sole focus right now.

Langston Clark:

Understood. Yeah, all right, mike, thank you for joining Entrepreneurial Appetite. I appreciate you, I love you, that's my guy and I look forward to seeing you in person pretty soon, because we'll be driving back and forth to Austin here in the next few months. So, mike, take care, have a good day. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you, brother. All right, keep it going great.