Pretend The Ball is Named Jim Crow: The Story of Josh Gibson as told by Dorian Hairston

In this extraordinary bonus episode from the African Americans in Sport Podclass, Dr. Langston Clark sits down with Dorian Hairston—poet, educator, former University of Kentucky baseball player, and author of "Pretend the Ball is Named Jim Crow: The Story of Josh Gibson"—for a conversation that bridges sports history, poetry, and the humanization of Black athletic excellence.

Josh Gibson was a Negro League baseball legend credited with hitting over 800 home runs in his career. He died in January 1947, just months before Jackie Robinson broke Major League Baseball's color barrier in April of the same year. But Gibson's story is more than statistics—it's about a 19-year-old who lost his wife during childbirth, a man who faced Jim Crow at every turn, and an athlete whose greatness was confined by systemic racism.

Dorian's book tells this story through poetry, not traditional biography. Using persona poems written from the perspectives of Josh Gibson, his wife Helen, his son Josh Gibson Jr., teammates like Hooks Tinker, and even time-traveling observers, Harrison creates what he calls "historical fiction"—using real historical figures and events to explore empathy, humanity, and the messy complexity of history.

In this conversation, Dorian shares his journey from being a student-athlete who earned All-SEC Academic honors while playing baseball at Kentucky, to becoming an English major mentored by Kentucky's first Black Poet Laureate, Frank X Walker, to joining the Affrilachian Poets collective dedicated to "making the invisible visible" in Appalachian storytelling. He discusses the power of complex identity, the importance of preparing for life after sports, and why poetry is the best medium for humanizing historical figures who are often reduced to one-dimensional narratives.

Transcript

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Langston Clark 0:32

I'm Langston Clark, founder and organizer of Entrepreneurial Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting Black businesses. Enjoy this special bonus episode from the African Americans in Sport podcast. I'm really excited to have Dorian Harrison, who is a poet, an educator, a baseball coach and author of Pretend the Ball is Named Jim Crow, the story of Josh Gibson. I think this is probably one of the most interesting interviews that we've done, because this is a book of poetry, so I'm going to ask Dorian to read his favorite poem from the book, or an excerpt from his favorite poem in the book.

Dorian Hairston 1:12

So thank you for that lovely introduction and this book To the Ball is Named Jim Crow, the Story of Josh Gibson, available on my website at dghpoetcom, if you want a signed copy shipped to you. As about Negro League baseball, great Josh Gibson, who is credited with hitting over 800 home runs in his career, before he ever well, he never actually got to play Major League Baseball because he died in January of 1947, which is significant because Jackie Robinson breaks color barrier April 15th of the same year. So I wrote this in nine couplets to mirror a baseball game, top half, bottom half of an inning, and it is from the point of view of Josh, and when I read it there aren't numbers on the page, but I read it in innings. So, manifesto for black baseball players. Persona Josh Gibson.

Dorian Hairston 2:01

One never forget the 42 reasons baseball is best played with color. Two steal bases like they stole this country. Three break into record books turned more than just a ink black. Four pretend the ball is named Jim Crow. Five decolonize the Hall of Fame. Six remember we gave the game lights, helmets and style. Seven never be controlled by anything white. Eight belt lift every voice and sing during their national anthem. Nine find you a helen drop down on one knee, place a baseball field on her fourth finger.

Langston Clark 2:44

An obvious but maybe not so obvious question Tell us why the name of the book is called. Pretend the Ball is Named Jim Crow, because you have that stanza in the poem. But what's the meaning behind that?

Dorian Hairston 2:57

A lot of these poems come from a place of anger, of frustration I feel, foremost when I, when I got exposed to Josh Gibson as a high school student, I was 18 years old he's 19 years old when his wife passes, giving birth to a set of twins, and I was like man that like I've, I felt anger about that Cause it just seems so unfair. Nobody should ever have to experience that. And then also he's a black man in America in the twenties, th, 30s and 40s, and so we know that Jim Crow exists and is. I mean, jim Crow is really strong at this point in American history and I feel a lot of anger in the fact that, like somebody told my grandmother where to sit on a bus and how do I hone or how do I? How do I use all of that anger to create some poetry?

Dorian Hairston 3:40

And then the idea came that Josh is using his anger at Jim Crow to hit the ball. I mean, there's some of his home runs that are still going today. And I wanted to make a statement that you know, with this story, that we're talking about more than just baseball and I talk a lot about, I think, a lot about progress, progress and the only way that we can make some progress is if we get rid of all of this other stuff like that, any remnant of jim crow, any idea or concept of it, and and create a better, a better future for ourselves and you know, one of the things I thought was really interesting about the book is because when I think about baseball and poetry I think about that, that Casey's at bat.

Langston Clark 4:25

You ever heard that? I have not, it's an old, old old I'm talking about, like our grandparents probably. You know, have heard of this poem called Casey's at bat and there was a cartoon made of it and basically Casey's like Babe Ruth but he decides to get married and he stops playing baseball and the sequel cartoon slash poem, is his daughters are now like really good baseball softball players and he's the coach or something like that. So I just thought it was interesting because Casey's at bat tells a story of. This fictitional baseball player is a white guy but your, your poetry, tells the story of and the emotions that Josh Gibson.

Langston Clark 5:10

Josh Gibson likely experienced in his journey as a baseball player and a black, black man in the United States. I want to share my favorite stanza or part of one of the poems and it's the original Dodgers on page 23 of the book and it's about maybe three quarters of the way through page 23. And it starts off like this Jackie Robinson was never the first black Dodger. We didn't dodge balls for centuries, Rent, lynch mobs, overseers, slave catchers, waded through fixed elections and rivers and done outrun horses and bloodhounds, even died some bullets a few times. I just really appreciated the play on words and what it meant for us to be Black Dodgers.

Dorian Hairston 5:54

So Hook Stinker is my favorite. I tell people I love writing from Josh's point of view, but Hook Stinker is, without a doubt, my favorite character. That I've my favorite voice, I guess, is the better way I would say that my favorite voice in the text, and Hooks is very critical of the way that we did integration. I'm a public school teacher so I think a lot about how we integrated schools, for example, and we assume that the white schools were the right schools. So, without a doubt, there were black schools that were getting it done. Were the white schools?

Dorian Hairston 6:24

So, without a doubt, there were, there were black schools that were getting it done and we closed them down because we assumed that they weren't as good or as prestigious or as rigorous or as capable as the white schools that were, in some cases, underperforming those, those same schools. So Hooks Tinker is, I think, a great, a great person to look at, and Alex Tinker is, I think, a great, a great person to look at and and have a conversation about all of the things that black people have had to overcome and persevere in order to survive, and all that we're really trying to do is just have a good time like this.

Langston Clark 6:58

So that pursuit is happiness piece right yeah, you know, it's really that simple. Happiness, peace, right yeah, you know, it's really that simple. All that we have really tried to do in this country is pursue, you know, joy and happiness and peace and really not take away from others. Before we get into a little bit more of the book, tell us your autobiography, your story as an athlete, as a student athlete and as a poet, and I would even say as a teacher.

Dorian Hairston 7:27

So I started. So I grew up in Lexington, kentucky. I grew up about a quarter of a mile from a baseball field, southeastern well, veterans Park, so Southeastern is the name of the baseball field. If I wasn't playing a game that day, all the neighborhood kids have bikes and we ride our bikes up there. There's a tank and we don't meet up at the tank. We spend the whole day up there. Um, we play tennis ball. If we didn't have a baseball, um, we play baseball with a tennis ball. I guess is the way I would say that and and I just played.

Dorian Hairston 7:59

I. I played a bunch of sports, but baseball was the one I was good at. And that I played a bunch of sports, but baseball was the one I was good at. That was the one I had the most fun doing, even though that was the one sport where, you know, predominantly on the team. There weren't a lot of kids that looked like me, unless they were my little brother, who was a really good baseball player at the University of Louisville and won a gold glove and played professionally for a little bit. But also for me, what was really important was taking care of my stuff in the classroom. I got a 3.5.

Dorian Hairston 8:25

My freshman year of college, I think it was, and I came home and I was like I could do better than that. I had six. I had six straight semesters of a 4.0. And then my senior year I got a B cause I got lazy in a Shakespeare class, but for me it was always. I was an academic preferred or I had a full ride academically. I was a preferred walk-on to play baseball at the University of Kentucky. The beautiful thing about that was they could cut me and I wasn't going to lose any of my school funding and my school funding was not tied in any way, shape or form to my performance on the field and some of my teammates were really stressed out about that piece.

Dorian Hairston 9:03

I wrote my first poem when I was I'm kind of all over the place, but hopefully it's making sense I wrote my first poem. That I think was good. It was a poem. The sixth grade it was on. The question of race was the writing prompt and in it I got to find the poem. But I talk about all of these different answers I might have to this question about what is my race and I finish with I boldly and proudly write down black. So I think it's interesting that that's the first poem I write and then this is a full circle. The first book I write is about this black baseball player that is unapologetically black, and I think the text is too, or at least I hope it was.

Langston Clark 9:44

You were good at sports, obviously you were good at school, obviously based upon what you just said. And then you found your voice for poetry. You said in the sixth grade who are you now as an educator and why choose to be a teacher?

Dorian Hairston 9:58

So my mom is a second career educator, and she actually serves on the local teacher's union. I chair the diversity and equity committee and my mom serves on that committee with me, and when I wrote that poem, my mom tells the story that she went to my dad and said, hey, this is like this isn't roses and red roses and red violets. This is really good stuff. We need to encourage him to write and continue to do this for as long as we can, and my dad is super supportive. He's like you know, this isn't my dad's a math guy. It's like I don't really get it, but I'm going to support you. So they encourage me to keep writing and I try to do that with my students as well Identify whatever their talents are, whatever their gifts are, and just encourage those things, especially especially if they're students that are creative, because I I see a lot of not to go on like some type of education rant, but I see a lot of students who are super creative who like they don't really fit into the way that we do school now and certainly with all of the these legislatures that we've got that are that are not, they're not, they're not helping, but we've got some really, you know beautiful kids with beautiful minds, beautiful hearts who are making some, some really wonderful creative work, and all I want to do is help them find ways to create and get better, hone their craft and and and continue to do that, because I see a lot of adults who don't want to create because it doesn't pay well, and I hope, I hope for some of my students they they do it anyway.

Exploring Josh Gibson's Historical Significance

Dorian Hairston 11:33 Langston Clark 11:33

Before we talk about the book, let's talk about Josh Gibson, right? Because I think it's important to understand the subject matter of the book For those people who don't know. I think people are obviously familiar with Jackie Robinson, maybe even more familiar with Satchel Paige than they are with Josh Gibson. So talk about who Josh Gibson was and why he is historically significant.

Dorian Hairston 11:57

So Josh Gibson was born in 1911. He passes away in 1947. He's born in Buena Vista, georgia. His parents are part of the Great Migration. They go up north. He ends up working in the steel mill with his father when he's about 15-ish, 15, 16 years old, and the way I envision it is as he's working in the steel mill. That's where he gets all of his strength. He's working with grown men moving these, really moving all of this metal, and that's like his form of weightlifting. He ends up. He ends up getting discovered by this guy by the name of Hooks Tinker and I mean he's hitting balls.

Dorian Hairston 12:26

Buck O'Neill says that you know there were three sounds. There were three times that he heard a bat sound a particular way. It was with Babe Ruth, bo Jackson, josh Gibson, he was a uh, he was a great catcher. Happy Chandler says in the in his oral histories that Josh Gibson was the greatest catcher he ever saw. And I mean he saw. Happy Chandler saw pretty much all the Yankees dynasties except for the most recent one. Actually he might've even seen some of the most recent one. But with Josh he loses his wife giving birth to a set of twins. He ends up traveling all over the country playing baseball. He's the best hitter, he's the satchel page of hitters and he's he struggles a little bit with alcoholism based on the research that I've done and possibly some other stuff, but I mean he lost his wife at 19 years old. That's Josh.

Langston Clark 13:19

Give us a little information about the inspiration for the poems. Even more so than that, the book has a very interesting structure in terms of who you give voice to through these poems, so talk a little bit about that as well.

Dorian Hairston 13:32

Some of them were super easy to figure out. For example, there's a poem my mom's favorite poem is Outfield Cot and in it Josh is reflecting on. You know this experience where during I'll do a craft talk to explain how I kind of come up with these poems. When I was doing my research, I found that in the Negro Leagues, when they would travel, sometimes they would end up in cities where they can't stay anywhere. All the hotels are full and the white hotels won't let them stay there. Or the white hotels might've actually been full too, I don't know. Either way, they ended up.

Dorian Hairston 14:08

I thought that they would sleep on the bus. They didn't do that. They would actually go back to the park and they would sleep in the outfield. And I was just like man, because I could never, as an athlete, I could never sleep on the bus. I remember we went from Mizzou to the SEC tournament.

Dorian Hairston 14:24

I think it was like a 14-hour bus ride and I couldn't sleep. I stayed up for that whole 14 hours and then I sent back to the hotel in Birmingham because I just could not sleep on the. I could not sleep on the bus. So I was like Josh, josh is me or I'm Josh, and what would Josh do? He wouldn't sleep. So here I end up with Josh Gibson sleeping, all the teammates are asleep and he can't sleep because he's trying to figure out all right, where am I going to hit this next baseball?

Dorian Hairston 14:52

And that's how a lot of these poems came to exist. But in terms of giving who voice, sometimes I would write the same poem five or six times. So, like night, what did I title that one? Night Visions, because that actually has had a whole bunch of different names too. So Night Visions or Night Vision is written from the persona of Josh Gibson Jr and it's about the moment that he and his sister enter the world Josh's point of view, the doctor's point of view, some time traveler myself, and I just try to throw a whole bunch of voices in there. See whose makes sense and that's who we go with, kind of how I ended up making those calls.

Langston Clark 15:37

What makes the book stand out to me is that you are telling history and biography through poetry, so talk a little bit about what it meant for you to do that in this project.

Dorian Hairston 15:48

So the thing I love about writing, writing persona poetry especially, I call it, I call this historical fiction, I'm sorry, I use I use historical figures, but it's all made up.

Dorian Hairston 16:00

The events that inspire the poems are true, but I'm not I'm not presenting this as like a hundred percent fact, but for me, writing them in poetry allows for me to do. But I'm not I'm not presenting this as like a hundred percent fact, but for me, writing them in poetry allows for me to do. What I think we're missing when we talk about, when we talk about history, is try to try to like, try to have some empathy. How do we remember that the individuals that we're talking about, when we talk about, for example, the Negro leagues, that these were men, they weren't just baseball players, these were men and they were brothers, they were sons, they were husbands, they were fathers, they were lovers, sometimes not good ones, but they contain multitudes. And how do we humanize these individuals? How do we make sure that we understand that? You know, life is life and history is messy and hard. And what do we do with that? And I think poetry is the best way to do that, and I'm not biased because I'm a poet.

Langston Clark 16:59

When you say what you just said in terms of humanizing the characters of the past, recognizing that they're more than just baseball players. They had roles, responsibilities, full human experience. It's almost like the way I was thinking about. So I work at a university and you know, I go to football games and so I'm there. It was like my students are on a football team and I'm sitting next to this guy's behind me. He's like come on defense. He's berating the defense and it dawned on me. I know this person who dropped that touchdown. I know them as a person, right, I don't really know them as a football player. I know him for real. We chatted after class. I know how good his writing is and all this person can see in a one-dimensional way is one mistake that they made in front of thousands of people.

Dorian Hairston 17:46

It's funny you mention that because one of the from the University Press of Kentucky, which is where this book is published, is the press that published this book. I have another poem that's published in Blackbone, 25 years, celebrating the Afro-Latino poets, and in that poem I talk about that very thing. So while I'm being recruited for the University of Kentucky, my mom and I went to a UK basketball game. We're sitting next to, or we're sitting behind this man that actually was. He had snuck some alcohol into deep because it was back before you could drink alcohol. Snuck some alcohol in, I could smell it and I knew what that smell was. And he yells down to the court.

Dorian Hairston 18:24

If I was Coach Cal, I'd whip them boys into shape. And I just remember thinking like, because baseball and basketball had the same advisor, the same academic advisor, so I knew a lot of these guys, or I knew who these guys that they were recruiting were. And I had seen a lot of these guys when I was doing my campus tours and stuff, because they were with all the baseball players. These are people, these are men and they're like 18 years old and you're like at least 50. At least 50. And he's not thinking about these individuals as people. In the same way, your experience with those football players Excuse me, with that fan and those football players.

Langston Clark 19:06

I always look at it as like these are lesser men and women criticizing people who are doing things that most of them could never do, could never dream of doing some of the things that could never do.

Dorian Hairston 19:17

You wouldn't have been anywhere close to that ball.

Langston Clark 19:19

Yeah, still to this point about how players are more than just players. So when I think about you reading your biography, preparing for this interview and some of the things that you just said, you were all SEC for academics, academic scholarship, to go play baseball, which is actually an interesting way that it they're sliced up and very few baseball players get that full ride. So there's a research article I did with two of my mentors, dr Albert Bumper and Dr Lewis Harrison. The name of the article is called Diamonds in the Rough and I can't remember the subtitle, but it's something about high achieving black male student athletes and the study is football players.

Langston Clark 20:09

And these brothers were really aspirational academically but they performed very well on the field. But they also had a social life that expanded beyond sports on campus, and one of the things that came up in that study, a major theme, was that these guys had complex identities, and so for you talk about what is meant for you to have what I perceive to be a complex identity in your transitions from student athlete to professional poet and educator.

Leveraging Connections for Career Success

Langston Clark 20:40

How has your multidimensional self, has it buffered you? Has it protected you in ways? Has it increased your outlook, expanded your range of opportunities?

Dorian Hairston 20:51

I think range is a really good way to describe it. I think having this as you so eloquently just stated a complex identity, gives me range, gives me breadth. So, for example, when I was playing baseball at the University of Kentucky, we played several number one teams in the nation and on more than one occasion I hit a home run when we were playing that team and I just I never felt like nervous. I feel more nervous reading. So I did a reading last night in front of like 50 people that I didn't know. I felt more, and some of them I didn't know actually I knew about a quarter of the crowd. I felt more nervous last night than I did playing in front of 15,000 in Alex Bach Stadium Because for me with baseball, I never felt like that.

Dorian Hairston 21:37

If I failed on the baseball field, that meant anything, said anything about me. It just meant that, like, today wasn't my day. But I know that that's the same. The same holds true for these, for these poems, and when I read them in public I just feel I just feel more anxious about doing well with that and I guess we could psychoanalyze me right now on why that is.

Dorian Hairston 21:56

But I never felt stress to perform on a baseball field and it was much easier to control the classroom. So I wasn't really stressed in the classroom either. And because of that, because I'm also a member of Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity Incorporated, and because of all of those different social connections, poets, that I was friends with the people that I just I was an English major, so you know, after class we had class. After class, that's what we did, and the professor might stay and hang out too, and we just keep talking about whatever book we're reading that week.

Dorian Hairston 22:28

And all of those experiences allowed for me to be able to move in different circles comfortably, and they didn't have to be, I didn't just have to be around athletes in order to fit in, but I could fit in with the athletes and that, that, I think, has helped me tremendously, even on into. You know, I've done, I'm a behavior coach now I was, I was a high school English teacher. I've, I was a TA at the college level. I've I've been able to to do a whole bunch of different things and I think, do them well.

Langston Clark 22:57

One of the things that I noticed and you're talking about being at the University of Kentucky that the press for the book is the University Press of Kentucky, and so one of the things I think many college students miss out on whether they be student athlete or non-student athlete is leveraging the relationships internally of the university to your benefit, even when you're no longer enrolled, and so talk about how you were able to leverage your relationships and leverage your status as an alum of the University of Kentucky to get some support in publishing this book.

Dorian Hairston 23:33

One of the things that I found success with early was you know, I'm spoiled. I have a great parents. My mom is. Is she called herself my marketing manager? So my mom, if she's, if she thinks that somebody can help me get to where I want to go, she's going to annoy them until they say, hi, it's a good. Annoying Like she's, she's going to make sure that they, that they know who I am and that that we have a conversation.

Dorian Hairston 24:05

One of those individuals was Frank X Walker, whose name is on the back of this lovely book, is the first black and youngest poet laureate of the state of Kentucky, co-founder of the Afro-Latino Poets, which I'm a member of. And I did not know what major I wanted to, what I wanted to major in. So I was integrated strategic communications and then I went to general studies. I forget what they called it, what they call it back then or what it's called now, but excuse me, I emailed Frank and I said hey, frank, I don't know what I want to do, can I come to your office hours? And we just talked. So we talked for about 30 minutes and he said well, I think you need to be an English major. And from then on. I just made sure because my mom and my high school English teacher hooked me up with Frank and then I just made sure that whenever I had an opportunity to build a connection with somebody on campus, I built that connection. I let them know hey, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm working on, this is where I'm at. Just wanted to stop by and say hi. I would regularly just walk the English department floor and just peek my head into people's offices if they were in there and just say hi, if I was up there seeing Frank in his office, so that everybody saw my face, and then I would, and then I would leave.

Dorian Hairston 25:15

And that, I think, has helped me, because with the University Press of Kentucky, a lot of folks sometimes it's not what you know is who you know, and I also learned that really early as well. These connections are important. I think the book is great, but also I helped, or I was in that first book, black Bone, 25 Years of the Afro-Latino Poets, and I had done a reading with the other Afro-Latino poets to celebrate that book and there were folks in that audience that I was able to make connections with. That is super important, that ability to communicate that ability to make those I mean there's no other word the connections Huge, and make them while you're there and then just let people know, semi-regularly, check in with them to know hey, this is what I'm doing, I hope you're doing well. Is there anything that I can help you out with? And then they'll usually return with a question. Is there anything I can help you out with? And then they'll usually return with a question? Is there anything I can help you out?

Langston Clark 26:11

Real, quick for context. Who are the Afro-Latchen Poets?

Dorian Hairston 26:14

So the Afro-Latchen Poets we are a group slash family of poets in and around the Appalachian Mountain region. We are founded oh my goodness, how old are we now? We're older than me, I'm 30. Oh my goodness, how old are we now? We're older than me, I'm 30. And we were founded by Frank X Walker. And the Frank X Walker came up with the word Afro-Latcha, which is used to describe folks in and around the Appalachian Mountains or the mountain region that the original definition of Appalachia did not include them.

Dorian Hairston 26:51

So it used to be that Appalachian was a white individual from the Appalachian mountains. That's right. Which excludes, you know, my dad's the youngest of 10. So my dad and every single one of my aunts and uncles is born in Williamson, west Virginia. So, and like I don't understand how, they're not Appalachian. So we our our motto is make the invisible visible. So a lot of our, a lot of our poetry is is centered around um telling these stories about, you know, marginalized or silenced individuals, making sure that their stories live on and that we can have conversations about. You know how to foreground these stories that are oftentimes put behind the background.

Langston Clark 27:37

And our last question for the day is what advice do you have for current student athletes as they navigate their careers as student athletes and students and transitions out of school and sports?

Dorian Hairston 27:52

Make sure that you prepare yourself to do something else. I'm not saying you love it, enjoy every second of it, because when it's gone it's gone, you're not getting it back but also make sure that you are spending your time preparing yourself to do something else. The best thing that ever happened to me was switching to an English major and stumbling into some creative writing classes, because now I have this book about baseball and I get that feeling back of playing in front of 15,000 people that I otherwise couldn't have because my body just wasn't able to do professional baseball or at least the scouting thing my buddy could do. Play professional baseball. But prepare yourself for something other than whatever sport it is that you are playing and love every second that you have with the game.

Exploring Josh Gibson's Legacy

Dorian Hairston 28:38 Langston Clark 28:38

All right, dorian Harrison, thank you for joining us. I appreciate you writing this book. Pretend the Ball is Named Jim Crow. The story of Josh Gibson. I appreciate you. Thank you for joining this edition of Entrepreneurial Appetite. If you liked the episode, you can support the show by becoming one of our founding 55 patrons, which gives you access to our live discussions and bonus materials, or you can subscribe to the show. Give us five stars and leave a comment.