I Have Avenged America: A Conversation with Dr. Julia Gaffield about Jean-Jacques Dessalines and Haiti’s Fight for Freedom

"What does it matter how present and future races will judge me? I have done my duty. I know my worth. That is enough for me." Jean-Jacques Dessalines's defiant words open this Black History Month episode of Entrepreneurial Appetite—a conversation about the revolutionary leader history tried to erase. Dr. Julia Gaffield, whose discovery of Haiti's Declaration of Independence made international headlines, joins us with special guest host Lloyd Kuykendoll to discuss why Dessalines deserves to be remembered as more than a warrior who secured Haiti's independence. This is the first English-language biography of the man who led the only successful slave revolution in history, and Dr. Gaffield reveals a figure of surprising complexity—loyal, witty, strategic, and deeply human. We explore why historians have overlooked him, what his story teaches us about the full arc of the Haitian Revolution, and why Haiti's Declaration of Independence—which imagined white skin as paper and blood as ink—needs to be read alongside America's founding document. Lloyd brings the passion of a veteran and self-taught historian who knows this work matters, creating moments of genuine emotion and insight. This conversation honors the rigorous work of Black scholars and their allies who are reclaiming our history, one archive at a time. During Black History Month and beyond, this is the scholarship that builds community, promotes intellectualism, and ensures our stories are told right.

Transcript

Langston Clark Alright, everybody, welcome to another episode of Entrepreneur Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting black businesses. And today we have a special guest, Doctor Julia Gaffield, who is an associate professor of history at William and Mary and author of I Have Avenged America Jean-Jacques Dessalines and Haiti's Fight for freedom. And our special guest host is Lloyd Kuykendoll, who is a veteran and self-educated historian of all things black history. For those of you who aren't aware, you should check out Lloyd's TikTok and YouTube channels. Black Cabinet Education, where he regularly discuss and host live conversations about black history. A little bit more about what we do here at Entrepreneurial Appetite. one, we have a sister podcast, the African Americans and Sport Podcast, which emerged out of a course that I used to teach called African Americans in Sport. And so during Covid, me and some of my academic brothers decided to turn this course that each of us were teaching at our respective universities into a pod class. So much like what Lloyd does on his platform to talk about all things black history. We take a very narrow scope on all things about the experience of African Americans in sport, from history to professionals to, people who support student athletes, former professional athletes who've made the transition to business, to academia, what have you also want to let you all know those of you who support Entrepreneur Appetite via our Patreon, or those of you who support on a regular basis through Eventbrite. Ten percent of all that we make from this podcast goes back to an endowment that I started with, two more of my academic brother and sister. this endowment supports scholarships for folks interested in getting graduate degrees in education, because the three of us all got our PhDs in education. And this is our way to give back to our beloved alma mater. And so now I'm going to turn things over to Lloyd and Doctor Gaffield to talk about Doctor Gaffield's, outstanding book. And before we get started, I also wanna give a shout out to Lloyd. Lloyd is the guest host for the second time on Entrepreneurial Appetite. He previously, hosted a conversation with Cliff Goins. So, thank you all for joining us, Lloyd. Doctor Gaffield, the floor is yours. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Brother Langston, for the introduction. And once again, we thank you. And we are blessed to have you in our presence, Doctor Gaffield. But, y'all, she said I could call her Julie, and she said, I'm a friend. So, you know, this is about to go down. I'm so glad to be here. yes. Please call me Julia. and thank you so much for for having me. and thank you to Langston for hosting. Yes. Thank you so much. I mean, if y'all don't know, y'all know I was very excited when this book first came out. And the book, of course, is I have Avenged America. Jean-Jacques Dessalines and Haiti and Haiti's fight for freedom now. Now, Julia, how we got to meet y'all was crazy. Alright, it was crazy. someone took one of my posts, posted it on IG, and Julia started following me. So I wake up in the morning thinking like, yo, Julia's following me. I couldn't believe it. And I was fanboying for like the rest of the day, cheesin from ear to ear. And then, of course, doctor, doctor Clark was like, yo, Lloyd, you know, is there anyone that you want to talk? I said, yo, can you reach out to Julia and reach out to Julia? And they say, yes. And this has been a great, wonderful relationship. She got some of our merch family. She got some of our merch. She got some of your. I'm using your coaster right now. Here we go. It's a really nice coaster, but okay, let me, let me let me interject because from I'll, I'll tell the story from my perspective of how of how we met. I mean, this was very shortly after the book was published. And, as I was telling you before, you know, publishing a book is kind of a weird endeavor because you work on it for so long, and then and then publication date comes and you know that people are reading it, but you're like, I don't know what they think. It's kind of awkward. And for most of the most of the time, it's kind of just like silence for a while. and so when somebody I don't know how I saw it, somebody might have sent it to me, I don't know, but, on Instagram, they had reposted because I'm not on TikTok. I'm. I'm too old for that. I feel like that's for the youth. but I, I was like, oh, my goodness. And I think in the video this, this stuck with me. You called it like a firestorm. And I was like, oh, wow, this is so cool. and so I followed you. And then the rest of the story is as you, as you told it. Awesome. That. That's amazing. Well, let's jump right in. If y'all don't know, Julia, she has done a lot of wonderful things. And I think one of the greatest things other than writing this book is, finding the Haitian Declaration of Independence in the London Archives. And even though I wanted to go a different direction, since we're here, can you tell us about the discovery of the Haitian Declaration of Independence? and how it went down? Yeah. So this was, in two thousand ten. Yes. A very long time ago. I was a I was a, you know, young grad student at Duke University, and, I was, doing research for my dissertation. What became my first book, Haitian Connections in the Atlantic World recognition after Revolution. There it is. with Leon on the cover. and I had always been interested in the kind of era after the revolution, you know, it was like every every book I ever read about the revolution was like. And then they declared independence on January first, eighteen oh four. The end. and I was like, well, how did how did the country survive? after independence? if it was this, like, you know, really hostile world, everybody the kind of narrative was that Haiti was isolated. And I was like, well, if everybody, you know, if like the the U.S. and the British and the French and the Spanish all ganged up on Haiti to make it fail, it probably would have failed, right? Like if there was that much consensus. but I was like, how did how did they actually remain independent? So that's a lot of what I was studying for the first book, were these kind of informal and formal diplomatic negotiations that helped, Haiti remain independent, even though it wasn't really recognized until much later. And so in doing this research, I, I first went, to Jamaica, to do research at the National Library of Jamaica and the National Archives. and at the National Library of Jamaica. They've got the papers of, the governor at the time, George Nugent. and this is like most archive stories are kind of boring because it's I don't know, it's like bureaucracy, right? but this was actually a visit to the archive that I was like, Holy smokes. Like, what is happening? They brought out the papers and it was like this, like gigantic. I actually think there were multiple gigantic wooden boxes, that you, like, open up. And then inside are all these letters, like, folded up and stacked up in these packages? and then, like, tied with the string. So it was like opening presents in the Ark. It was. It was kind of amazing. and in that, series of documents, there was evidence that suggested that a printed copy of the Haitian Declaration of Independence existed. had been sent there and then forwarded to London. and so the you know, the problem, I guess, was that no kind of official copy was known to exist, in Haiti or anywhere else. And that means an official copy, meaning, you know, an original signed version of the Declaration of Independence like they have in the US. It's like under a shrine, or any, any kind of official, publication by the government. So that was not known to exist. so I think it was the next year I went, to London to kind of follow up on some of the leads, that I had found in Jamaica. And like, by the way, like tons of documents in Jamaica, original letters by Dessalines. you know, like, a lot. I don't know exactly how many. I should probably know how many, but probably a couple dozen letters signed by Dessalines and just evidence of, like, these really intense, and kind of, and like, very sophisticated diplomatic negotiations trying to establish a trade treaty, that would have recognized Haitian sovereignty and offered protection against the French. and so I'm following up on these leads in London because the the governor is like sending all of his stuff to his bosses in London and, in the Jamaican colonial records, at the National Archives in London, there was, an original printing of, the Declaration of Independence, and it was a like a small pamphlet version. I think it was eight pages. and what made it official was that at the bottom it says, you know, like from the government printing press. And so this is the kind of official version of the Declaration of Independence, which was not known to exist before then. And I think what's kind of important like is that it was not a document that was lost or stolen, as a lot of things in British museums are. but it was sent to the British on purpose as part of these negotiations. and they're like, hey, we're independent, let's trade. and it was catalogued with the Jamaican colonial records, because that's the kind of the path that they took. relationship negotiations. Right. and, you know, the so I just said that the Jamaican archives were like this really cool archival experience, the London archives. I mean, it's cool, but it's it's a lot more like, you know, bureaucratic and, I mean, in one of the things that you don't really think of is that a lot of the time doing, research is like a really lonely endeavor, you know, because you're, you're going to the archive and you're doing your own work and you're kind of hyper focused on your own stuff. and like, yeah, it's cool, but you're like, everybody else around you is doing cool stuff, and it's their own thing, and you're like, nobody's going to care about what I'm doing, but I really care about what I'm doing. and so on, kind of seeing this document in the archive, I was like, oh, like, cool. It's here. Like I found it. And, at the time, this is twenty ten, they did not have Wi-Fi in the archive, and I did not have a smartphone with me. this was like before, like, the roaming was so much easier. and so at the end of the day, I logged on to a terminal, and I sent, I sent an email to, my advisor and another committee member, Lauren Dubois and Deborah Jensen, who I had kind of talked with about this before, and Deborah Jensen had done some research onto the in the like the declarations, Publication in US newspapers. and so I was like, you know, cool. I found it and they were like, great work. you know, and it's one of these things that you kind of get like, just laser focused and, you think everything's really cool, but, you know, you kind of underestimate how other people will react. and it wasn't until a couple of weeks later, my advisor, Lawrence emailed me and was like, you know, I just talked with an archivist in Haiti, this, archivist Patrick. and he was like. And I told him what you found, and he got really excited. And so I just want to confirm that you found what I think you found. And so I emailed both of them back because I knew, Patrick. And I was like, yeah, this is what I found. And I sent, you know, the pictures I'd taken. and so he was enthusiastic and he was like, oh, well, like, this is the only known official copy. And so in twenty ten, what do you do when you're excited about something? I updated my Facebook status. and then a friend of mine said, you know, like, this is this is a pretty big deal. more people, you know, you should get in touch with, like, the news office at Duke. And I was like, ah, I don't know. So I sent this, like, very hesitant email to my advisor. Like, my friend thought that maybe other people would be, I don't know. And I was, like, super embarrassed to send it. and then when a news office at a university gets hold of a good story, they really run with it. And this was, very shortly after the twenty ten earthquake in Haiti. And so Haiti had been in the news. and so they kind of did up a nice, you know, treatment of it for, for the media. and what I found really cool about the whole thing is that I really learned that, like a lot of people do care, and a lot of people were really excited to learn more about the Haitian Declaration of Independence. And there was like a real enthusiasm, for this history, a real enthusiasm for like, the archival research and that kind of thing. and so I think that shaped a lot of my work going forward. And I was much more interested in kind of reaching broader audiences because I, I got this sense that, like, there was there was interest, there was a need, for kind of more public facing stuff. And so really the, the book on, on Dessalines is, you know, the culmination of that kind of, effort to take my academic work and, reach a broader audience with kind of. That was a long answer. That's fine. No, I kind of sensed that. Well, let me let me frame this for you. Right. In twenty ten, I was in Iraq, right? You know, I did twenty one years in the military. So I was in Iraq in twenty ten. Here we are, twenty twenty five, and I have the excitement of a child when I look who you are up after I read the book, I look up who you are and I'm like, she found the what? So here I am on TikTok live telling everybody, yo, not only is she going to allow me to interview her, she found the Haitian Revolution, the Haitian Declaration of Independence. What do y'all know about that? So that same excitement that was going on in Haiti, we all had that same excitement when we started finding out who you were. And so I tell you, it is very exciting and let you know, please don't ever downplay what you found because we all take it seriously over here, especially when we talk about black history, right? I know, I mean, it was a really good lesson. Like, I was just I was so, narrowly, you know, I had kind of like, tunnel vision. And I was like, wait a minute. so it was a really. It was a really good lesson, that there is, like, a lot of public desire for this, this kind of research and this kind of knowledge. So you always kind of had a kind of lead into it. the other, her book, Haitian Connections, like, like I was talking about Haitian connections. And then, of course, the, the Haitian Declaration of Independence that you was edited, that you edited. And I was thinking almost as if the the Dessalines work was a was like your to do all this, you know, research comes into this product that you deliver to us. And the reason why I believe it's so important because when you read C.l.r. James book, The Black Jacobins, you're you're reading a story of Toussaint. And and as you're reading the story, you hear about this general that he sends to battle and basically makes everybody bow to their knees. And then you hear this guy take over, tears the white out the flag, and then he declares independence. Of course, books over, like you said. And so to me, I'm just like, who is this guy? Who is he? Then you hear about the Montoya thing. You hear about all these different things. It's like, I wish someone would say more. So when you come out with this book, I'm excited because the only way we know him as is this wonderful guy of battle. And, you know, it's when they see his armies coming. You always hear armies and everybody like, no, his armies are coming, right? And so and then, especially when it says, with Rochambeau, he went blow for blow with him. If Rochambeau killed five hundred, he hung five hundred. I mean, just the different things there. But you don't really get a sense of who the man is. And so I do want to start out by asking us to start off. What is your favorite part of your work of this book? I have Avenged America. If you wanted to read a passage or just tell us your favorite part of the book, please share that with us. I think well before before we we get to that I your mention of Clr James like you know that was the first sailor James was the first. and I didn't even read the whole book in this class, but it was just part of the book. and when I was an undergrad at the University of Toronto, my professor, Melanie Newton. I'm gonna ask you about her later. Let's not go to sorry. Okay? Okay. Okay. But, C.l.r. James was my first introduction, to the Haitian revolution, right? And so I, you know, while while I saw the need to focus on a different person, I'm still kind of very indebted, to to his work, because, you know, that was kind of my my gateway. I like organic. Go ahead. Because that's going to be a question if you do not meet Doctor Newton, if Doctor Newton doesn't put that book in your hand, I know what is Julia Gaffield doing today? I have no idea. Oh, goodness. it's it's funny, like, I'm still in touch with her, and I'm like, you've changed my life. You know, like you like, after taking that class, I my everything kind of just went in a different direction. I took multiple classes with her. I did a at the university. There was a specialist, which is kind of one step above a major, in history. But then I did a major in, Caribbean studies, and she was kind of essential to that. I mean, I, well, yeah, we got off your first question. I'll, we'll circle back. but I like I started university as, I was in, like, a kinesiology program, and I was going to be a physical therapist, and I played on the basketball team, and I was an athlete, and, like, my identity was as an athlete. And so that was my world. and then I was taking a history elective. and it was a class that was like introduction to the history of the Americas or something like that. It was a kind of lower, you know, lower level, lecture class. And I was doing really well in it. I was getting an A, and in all of my kinesiology classes, I was failing and I had no interest in anatomy, and I did not want to learn about that. And so I very quickly switched programs. so I think I would have been doing some kind of history. but Professor Newton's class, like, really kind of solidified my interest because it was just a history that I hadn't learned. You know, this was not something that we were taught in high school. maybe, maybe more. So now I learned, you know, like, a lot. I hear that it's being integrated into world history classes a lot more now, but it is very much like Toussaint Louverture If only. And a kind of very, surface level, introduction to the revolution. And I teach, Haitian or Haitian Revolution class, here at William and Mary. And, you know, some students will come in with like a little bit of knowledge, but definitely not the kind of, you know, deep knowledge of the, the real complexity, of the event. okay. Well, let's let's go back to your your previous question. I think, you know, my, I, my favorite, part of the book is not my own writing. It's Dessalines writing, which I think is, I don't know, probably normal for a lot of writers that, you know, claiming that any part of my own writing is my favorite is, It feels a little awkward. but what I really like about how I end the book. This is going to be a spoiler. Epilogue. is, you know, I end with this kind of statement about discipline. and, you know, at the end of the epilogue and I go through in the epilogue, I go through kind of how he's been portrayed over the last couple hundred years. I think he's giving he's giving some historians some smoke. He was like, yeah, take that. You. Yeah. Take that. Yeah. Like almost if you it's like no you. Hey. This one right here. You don't play. And he was basically letting everybody know, you know, hey you know setting the facts straight like, you know, you were saying this and this is, you know, basically. But I love it because when I was reading it, I was reading, I was like, that's right. Julia, let them know. Tell them who he is. Yes. Thank you. That's the reaction I wanted. Okay. yeah. So, I mean, I go through and and kind of say, like, why he's gotten, you know, the short end of the, you know, I always mix metaphors. Why? He's gotten the shaft in terms of histories of the Haitian Revolution. You know, everybody wants to focus on Toussaint. There's been, like a whole bunch of biographies of Toussaint Louverture. none in English of Dessalines. and so there's a reason for that, right? Like, it's not an accident. It's a very kind of intentional, critique of of him and his role in the revolution. but I end the book with this, with this kind of amazing statement. I'll. I'll read it. I'll. I don't know if I can read my own writing out loud, but I'll give it a try. Dessalines seemed to foresee the scorn he and his nation would receive in the future. In early eighteen oh four, he had addressed a proclamation not to his fellow Haitians, but instead to the inhabitants of the universe. Quote do not unheard accuse us of cruelty. He pleaded with the international community. Remember our past sufferings and you will judge less severely our present acts of necessity of despair. End quote. To such plea we must surely such a plea. We must surely listen. But we must also listen to more than pleas to understand Dessalines truly listen to his defiance. In another speech, he confessed to quote mortals and gods that he had avenged America. This defiant act was his pride and glory. Quote. What does it matter how present and future races will judge me? Dessalines demanded. I have done my duty. I know my worth. That is enough for me. And I think, I think it's my favorite because for two reasons. Because I think it's hilarious as like a biographer that he's like, I don't care what you think. I don't care what you write about me. I am like, happy and confident in my actions and what I've done. Like your opinions do not matter. But then I also like it because I think it reveals, part of his character that is, you know, this kind of self-assured, self-assuredness and, you know, like a little, yeah. This kind of, you know, cocky confidence, that I think you can get, get a sense of, his sense of humor is something that I, that I really wanted to emphasize in the book and that I learned about, and he's got this kind of wry sense of humor, a little bit cheeky. It does end up being one of my favorite parts, and it does actually lead me to a question that I did have for you. While you're researching the book, is there something you learned about gasoline that surprised you? And if it is, what is it? And also, was there something you learned more about the Haitian Revolution that surprised you and what would that be? There? I mean, yes, there were a lot of surprises. let me think. the sense of humor, I thought, I think it doesn't come out in, as you said, a lot of, of the writing about him because it's like, oh, he was just there for violence, right? And, so you don't get that that kind of, the playfulness and, you know, the kind of sarcasm and cheekiness. so, I think that was, I don't know, surprising. It was something that kind of went once. I was really just focusing on on his life really kind of came through. And it's also something that like, I don't know, never gets any attention in like, contemporary, writing about Haiti in the, especially in the US, you know, everything and everything that gets written about Haiti is is about violence or poverty, you know, natural disasters and those types of things. And that misses like, you know, when you when you go to Haiti and you interact with Haitians, they're like hilarious, you know, like they've got this kind of, really like, witty sense of humor. that doesn't get any media attention. So I think that that kind of tracked with his, his life. another thing that I, that I, I guess learned more about, were his friendships and, his kind of really intense loyalty to the people around him, Some of whom are family, some of whom were just, you know, friends and, kind of colleagues that he kept close to him for, like, his whole life. and that he was just, like, really loyal to, like, he had this, like, click, and this was actually something that, kind of came to light. I'd written a first draft of the book, and I did a manuscript workshop with, some, you know, friend colleagues, one of whom was Chelsea Stieber, who's written, on independent Haiti. she's a professor at Tulane. and she's like, in the version that you've written, he kind of exists on an island. and like, who are his people? And so in the next version, I really dug in on that. And, and I was able to see these, these kind of really tight, relationships. But then I also saw this kind of that he has like a breaking point, you know, and that even if there's people who have been in his close circle, for a long time, that if they do something that there's like, okay, you're cut off. Yeah. You would think he'd be a tourist. That's what tourists do, a tourist. Yeah. You know tourist. That's a tourist sign. That's what they would do. You mess them over one time, you're done, you know. See, I think I think of it as, like, a very Sagittarius trait. I don't know if there's any people into astrology here, but I'm like, there's a there's a kind of. And I'm, of course, a Sagittarius. And so I'm like, there's, you know, you get to a point and you're like, oh no, you crossed a line. And like, that's it. The the relationship is broken. well that he's got that. So you're studying or you're researching discipline and you're, you're going through archive to archive and you're looking at things. Was there ever a sense of him speaking directly to you? Was there a time where the presence of Celine was there, maybe in his writing, maybe you just heard, like, the spirit of him over you saying, now, Julia, this is what I need you to write about me. No, because he, as I said, did not, does not care, did not care what I think about him. but I think, you know what what really struck me, and I and I had a sense of this before, you know, and you mentioned, the reader that I have on my website where I've posted a bunch of primary sources, and I had initially. So I had initially started this project with the idea that I was going to do a dazzling reader, that I was just going to try and publish an edited book of his writing, you know, and all all of the stuff that I had found, in various archives and just be like, no, he's actually written a lot because of course, part of the narrative around him is that he was illiterate. but I and I talk about this in the book that was often used as a, as a, you know, as a, like a character description to emphasize that he was, you know, like savage and uncivilized and, you know, he was like savage African who was illiterate. And I hope everybody's watching me doing your quotes here. Hear me out. Almost. That book, Black Majesty almost threw it away after I read your book, because they depict him like that so bad in Black Majesty. As if, like every time they brought him news, he was frustrated, just wanted to drink. And. And when I read that, I'm just like, you know what? I hate this book now. I'm good. So. Okay, so this book started as, like, I was gonna maybe do just, you know, an edited, collection of his writing. And then I kind of got into it more and I was like, you know, maybe, maybe I do want to write a biography. I don't know. and but then in doing the research for, like, once I committed to a biography, I did, you know, some more research and my kind of primary source base expanded, and there was even more letters than I thought, by him. And so, in an unexpected way, I think his voice is able to come through more than I thought it would. because the narrative is like, oh, well, there's there's no sources. There's nothing you can't you can't write about him because there's not enough material. And I'm like, well, actually, there's plenty of material. And my gasoline reader that I have online is in desperate need of being updated because I have a ton more stuff and all I need is more time. Yes it does. But but okay. But you know, so you're you're saying that okay. He probably didn't, you know, care. But I'm sure, I'm sure. His words, his words. You know, one thing in studying, like, you know, African ways of knowing. And we talk about ancestors. The way that we listen to our ancestors is by their writing. And that's how we get to hear the spirit of gasoline. And, you know, when I first, seen a quote, I think it was about two years ago, I seen his quote, I have avenged America. Didn't know what the hell it meant when I first read that quote. But after reading this book, I was like, now I get it. You know, I understand. And before I go there, and I know you said you kind of wanted me to. What did you want readers to feel? Not just about gasoline, but about the spirit of the Haitian Revolution after reading this narrative of the Haitian Revolution? I wanted, I guess, I think I wanted them to feel like the complexity of the event.