Black Capitalists: A Blueprint for What is Possible with Dr. Rachel Laryea

Can capitalism be a tool for collective black liberation? In this powerful episode of Entrepreneurial Appetite, host Langston Clark and special guest host Lloyd Kuykendoll (founder of Black Cabinet Education) sit down with Dr. Rachel Laryea, author of "Black Capitalists: A Blueprint for What's Possible," to explore one of the most urgent questions facing black communities today.

Dr. Laryea, a former Goldman Sachs professional turned entrepreneur and thought leader, challenges us to rethink our relationship with capitalism. Drawing on Pan-African principles and her Ghanaian immigrant mother's hustle, she reveals how we can strategically engage with economic systems—not from a place of oppression, but from a position of power and collective uplift.
This conversation goes deep into the distinction between being a black participant in capitalism versus being a true "black capitalist"—someone who repositions themselves within the economic system to achieve social good. Learn about innovative tools like Esusu's rent-to-credit reporting that's unlocking millions in capital access, traditional sou-sou money pooling practices, and the power of organized economic boycotts.

Dr. Laryea shares hard-earned wisdom from Wall Street, addresses the "tax" of being black in corporate America, and explains why she wrote a book with such a polarizing title. From discussing the dangers of individualism and crabs-in-a-barrel mentality to exploring what it means to "lift as we climb," this episode offers a blueprint for economic empowerment rooted in community, not competition.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, investor, or simply seeking to understand how to build black wealth without compromising black values, this conversation delivers actionable insights for our in-between moment—the space between where we are and where we're trying to go.

Featured Guest: Dr. Rachel Laryea, Author of "Black Capitalists: A Blueprint for What's Possible"
Special Guest Host: Lloyd Kuykendoll, Founder of Black Cabinet Education

Transcript

Speaker Alright, so what's up everybody? Thank you all for joining this live recording of Entrepreneurial Appetite, a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting Black businesses. So today we're going to get right into the conversation because our guest here, Doctor Rachel Laryea did I say it correct the correct Ghanaian Ghanaian pronunciation, is here with us with our special guest host, Lloyd Kuykendoll And Doctor Laryea is the author of. I'm just going to bring it up here so y'all can see it. Okay. Black Capitalists a Blueprint for What's Possible, and also want to give a shout out to Lloyd for stepping in today as special guest host as he is the founder of Black Cabinet. Education. He has a large following on TikTok, where he reviews books. He reviews black history reviews, all things Black African American studies. Actually, Doctor Laryea you need to talk to him afterwards about getting his PhD. But that's a separate conversation because Lloyd is one of these brothers who's truly, committed to being self-educated and learning about black folks across the diaspora. so I just thought the pairing between the two of you, would be great. And so, Lloyd, without further ado, I'm gonna let you take it from here. And, I appreciate you both for joining us today. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Rachel Laryea it is a pleasure meeting the wonderful author of this amazing book. I have at first, at first I was, you know, because I'm not a capitalist, you know, fan of capitalism. And so as I started reading it, at first I was like, ah, I gotta press through. And then out of nowhere, it something hit me and I really enjoyed the read. I enjoyed the book and I became a fan of yours very quick. And I want to jump in by asking, and can you talk to people about what does it mean when you say you don't want to wake up on the wrong side of capitalism? Yeah, that's a great question. I think, when I first and what you're talking about, just to give people more context, when I first started doing this work around race and money and blackness, I came across this image and it was an image of a man of color standing in front of a concrete wall, and that wall was spray painted with some graffiti. And the note on the wall said, every morning I wake up on the wrong side of capitalism. And it really hit me because I thought about how that notion is true for so many of us, and I think it informs so much of our relationship to our posture to capitalism, this notion of waking up on the wrong side, and even the kind of desperation and trying to always strive towards liberation, but then always feeling as though there are structural and systemic challenges that make it really hard for us to achieve that. And so that was something that has always stuck with me, as I've been on this journey of really trying to write a story and create a blueprint for how we can wake up on the right side of capitalism, because I think that, like everything else, systems, you know, sometimes we believe that there are these amorphous bodies that we have no control over and we're just kind of cogs in the engine. But it's really an invitation to think, actually, that we have agency. And when we work together, we can create new realities for ourselves. People create the systems that are maintained and sustained, and capitalism is no different. And so it's really an opportunity for us to realize the power that we do have to wake up on the other side of capitalism. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Again, we're we're talking to Doctor Rachel Laryea She is, of course, the writer of this wonderful book, Black Capitalist, and one of the one of the things that that I wouldn't really struggling with, but something that you really opened up my eyes to as I was reading the book, and that is understanding capitalism, but also understanding this Pan-Africanism that that you really embrace. Can you tell us about this Pan-African way of waking up and of course, capitalism and trying to bring that communalism into capitalism process? Yeah. You know, it's really important to understand the terms or the systems that we're navigating. So capitalism is in just basic terms, right? It's an economic system whereby private actors are able to pursue private ownership and profitability, and that profitability is in excess. Right. And capitalism as we know it nurtures individualism. It suggests that in order for me to be successful, someone else has to be defeated. It nurtures a scarcity mindset that there are finite resources. And so it creates this sense of competition that I need to get access to those resources and hoard them. Because if I don't, someone else is going to get them and I'm going to be in a state of lack. And that thinking, that mindset that capitalism nurtures in all of us, is predicated on a foundation of exploitation, extraction and violence. Because when you look at the creation of American capitalism, what is that built upon? Legalized slavery in this country. And so you see how this system is all about dividing and conquering. It's all about making people think that they're in it alone. And that actually the people around them are competition. So that is what capitalism is as we know it today. So then when you introduce Pan-Africanism, you can start to see how the key function of it is in every single way antithetical to capitalism, because it's a story about how we are one, how we collectively share a shared past. And also, I would argue, a shared future. And it's about communalism, how we can come together, work cooperatively in service of our goals, our dreams, our ambitions, and really anchoring on the fact that we should look at each other as kin. And again, as I said, if you think about Pan-Africanism as an effort towards communalism, you know that capitalism is about individualism. And so those things are contradictory. And so when I talk about waking up on the right side of capitalism, the next question is well, how do we do that? And it starts first in the beliefs and the mindsets that will allow us to recognize that capitalism is trying to trick all of us. It's trying to make us believe that we're in it by ourselves, and that there's no way for us to collectively benefit. And it's in that awareness, that kind of black consciousness, that we then are able to pivot, open and expand the paradigm of how can we use the tools of capitalism differently in service of social good and service of collective uplift? And so that's how I like to think about these things, because the reality is, is that we live and navigate contradictions every day. America is a contradiction, right? Our relationship to capitalism is no different. And we need to start making space to sit with the contradictions of our everyday lives. But then also how do we move towards communal and social good in spite of those contradictions? Yeah. You know, I would at this point, I would have wanted to go to like chapter two, where he talked about the spook who sat by the door, because I really enjoyed that and because I understand the concept of it. Right. But I but I kind of want to dive a little bit more into where we're going with that. And so, how do you distinguish between individual black success and collective black, economic power? I know in the book you really talk about the I'm not Black, I'm O.J. and then, of course, you go on to Jay-Z's, okay. And I really like how you swung that in there. And so you have Jay-Z and you talk about the Colin Kaepernick football situation, but then you also talk about O.J. and his situation where he wanted to say, hey, I'm just an individual. So what? You know, we got a lot of individual black success. People say they're black millionaires today. There's no way we're being held down. How do you combat that when you talk about black economic power? Yeah. Excellent question. And you know what your question is also revealing is the complexity and the nuance of this, right. Because there's always the individual within and in relation to the collective. And then you've also got identity politics that are playing out in terms of how we even relate to each other. When you overlay not just black identity, but then also class and socioeconomics. I think what's so important in what you're raising is the reality that there's a difference between being a black capitalist, as I define it in the book, right? Being a black person who participates in capitalism. Those are two very different identities, because individually, you can be a black person who has succeeded in capitalism, and you might call yourself a capitalist, but that doesn't make you a black capitalist because as I define a black capitalist, that's someone who is invested in repositioning themselves within the economic system in order to achieve social good. So the two key tenets of that is repositioning yourself within the economic system and doing it in pursuit of social good. And so to be a black person, just participating in capitalism and succeeding in doing well, that might be all well and good. But you have to ask yourself if you know that capitalism is about what we talked about earlier hoarding, greed, extraction, exploitation, violence, and you are succeeding in your participation in that, what are you invested in? And those are the questions as opposed to a black capitalist framework is being very intentional and strategic about your engagement with capitalism, because you're doing it for a purpose that's in service of a collective, not in service of your own individual gain. And that's the core difference. It's whether you have that kind of individual mindset or a communal one, because inherent in a black capitalist framework and the practice of black capitalism is a notion that there is sacrifice in service of a greater good, right? And so those are some of the critical differences that I would say, because people will say, oh, well, there are these black millionaires and it should be a kind of indication of progress. Or some folks will say, oh, you know, black millionaires and they've sold out, right? They're not connected to community. And so they're just examples of the exception rather than the norm. And so there's so many different critiques, because inherent in that last one that I mentioned, people will think that in order to be black and wealthy, you have to participate in some kind of exploitative practice, like there's no way that you arrived at that wealth in a manner that's, moral or ethical. That's the underlying assumption, I think, very much predicated on the history that we carry with us when it comes to being a black person in an American economic system. And intergenerationally what that has meant for us. But I would say that, again, I think we have to open the aperture and how we think about black wealth. What we should believe ourselves to be worthy of. And then also see models and case studies of examples where people have been able to acquire wealth and do it actually using the tools of capitalism in service of social good, and helping other people along the way also achieve greater forms of financial freedom. And it's possible. And so I think that's also an important element of this. We have to see models of how people do it differently rather than anchoring on, you know, the jay-zs of the world and say whatever it is we're going to say about that, but actually point to other models around, this is actually what it means to practice black capitalism. You know, on page nineteen, you actually say being a black participant of capitalism is entirely different from being a white participant. And and so just that we've seen that, Robert Smith, he, I think it was Spelman and Morehouse, after their graduation, he pays for everyone's student debt to be basically wiped out. Yeah, I believe that was the Morehouse graduating class. Yeah. Okay. Morehouse. Right. So he pays for all the student debt to get wiped out. And right when he does that, what happens? The attack of tax evasion comes on him, and they're trying to lock this man up. And so whenever we try and do this collective thing such as most, most importantly, most people always know about the the Rosewoods and the Tulsa's, This collective capitalism that we do, where our money begins to circulate within our communities. It seems that that's when we become under attack. So if we were to be, I think when you put the chapter spook that sat by the door is understanding those tools, sitting by the door, going into places like Goldman Sachs, like yourself, going in different places, understanding how to move and shake within those realms and then bringing it back to the people. And now being, aw, I love you. I love your term. Also the hustle, right? You know, what does it mean to hustle? In fact, I did a TikTok video just based off when I was reading the book. I was like, I'll do a TikTok video on what does it mean to hustle? Oh wow, I gotta see it. It's a wonder. It's it's actually it's one of my better ones. I even YouTube it went went crazy about, you know, because I started out with what you said, the Rick Ross every day I'm hustling and I had that start off the whole thing. And so when we talk about the hustle, can you tell us, give us a little treat about your mother and her hustle when she came from Ghana to the United States, and how that sets you and your brother up for success. Yeah, you know, my mom, the older I get, the more I appreciate her. You know, I think she immigrated to the US back in the eighties and really in Chase and in pursuit of that American dream, the elusive American dream. And for years and years, growing up, she worked two jobs, seven days a week to provide for me and my brother alone in the US. And it was really through hustling, just really this mindset of she's going to figure it out by any means possible. Her kids are going to get access to the best. And for her, it was really with this understanding that education is the way out. She always believed that you got to center education because that will give you opportunities to options. At the end of the day, because it's really what we're talking about, having options so that you don't have to make choices based out of desperation of any kind. And so that was really what she was anchoring towards. And so growing up, she'd work the graveyard shift or she'd, you know, be at work during the day. And I'm at school, and she really instilled in my brother and I a deep sense of work ethic. you know, some people might be professional athletes or whatever it is. I could say I'm probably a professional student just the way that she really trained us to. And I'll give you a sense, you'd wake up four thirty in the morning, every single morning there were chores, there were things that we had to do, and we would study before school, go to school, come back home, do more studying, do homework, even kind of orate to my mom, you know, the homework that I did and should always be in the spirit of quizzing us, you know, really just trying to activate our curiosity in a way that would encourage us to really love school, love learning and pursue that. And it worked. Both my brother and I, you know, we benefited from incredible scholarships that paid for private high school education and then had scholarships for college, which led to opportunities professionally as well. But it really started with her. okay. So yeah. Yeah. But okay, so she she worked hard. But then there's also this dark side of capitalism where we feel like we have to continue to work. Do you remember when you came home and you thought that now that you and your brother were gone, that she didn't have to work all these jobs? You come back and she's still overworking herself because this, this, this thing about having to stay ahead and do that, then you start talking about the person that talks about the relaxation. Hey, we have to build this relaxation. And how do we relax in in a capitalist environment? How do we find ways to do that? Yeah, it takes a lot of intentionality, a lot of giving yourself grace, because it's challenging, even for me. I think growing up the way that I did and, you know, even sometimes now when I just, I know I need to take a break before I get burnt out, you know, or feel as though I'm overwhelmed by the work that I'm doing. And there's always that kind of voice in the back of my mind around like, oh, you could be doing this, or you could be optimizing your time in this way or that way, but really saying, again, what I was talking about before around how capitalism always kind of tricks us into behaving in certain ways and requires you to be so aware to pull out of it and say, oh, I see what's happening here. I see how this system is just like continuing me to operate in a particular way, and I'm actively choosing to resist that. And so that to your point, it certainly is a dark side of capitalism or the dark side of hustle culture that requires us to to the extent that we can, because I don't want to paint a rosy picture that we can all enjoy the privilege of resting and having time. But if it's possible to really, take it seriously, because I think that especially for black women, the the work that we do, the emotional, physical labor, you know, that has a compounding effect not only on our mental but on our physical health as well. And so and I think when it comes to my mom, you mentioned, you know, just around how she just continued in that framework. But what's been so beautiful for me to see is that as I've taken the lead in showing her moments where I've been intentional about resting and taking time for myself, She also has been doing that. And it's funny you mention her because she had just sent me a WhatsApp note talking about how she she's on vacation this week and she's just enjoying herself. She's telling me all the things that she's doing, and it just brought a smile to my face, you know, because I can't remember the last time my mom took a vacation, you know? And so that happens incrementally. But it starts by again, seeing a model for how you can do it and create space for it, you know, little by little over time. Awesome, awesome. I know we don't have a whole lot of time, but I do want to jump to another situation. I'm really trying to find it. I should have put a highlighter on it, but there's a situation where you had your own business, everything was going well, and you find a way to make it more mainstream, and you're about to close it down and one of your workers say something as if you felt that you were, I'm not going to use the word slave driver, but he says, I forget what he says, and it's on the tip of my tongue. I'll tell you, I remember. Yeah, because it hurts your feelings a little bit. Oh, he talks about that situation. Yeah. So it was, a transition point in the business. We were transitioning into e-commerce at the time. I had a brick and mortar. And, you know, just the economics of it wasn't making sense in the space that we were in. And so we were closing down the shop. And that last day, one of my team members, he said, oh, well, I don't have to work for Masa Rachel anyway. That's what he said to me. And and he was at that time about nineteen, twenty years old saying that. And it, it did hit, you know, I was like, wow. You know, because I liked to think that I was very intentional about building a culture, you know, at the business that didn't even inspire that kind of language to even come up. and I think, you know, it says a lot about even the language and the rhetoric that we use to describe our relationship to work vis a vis capitalism. As black people and, you know, for someone like, you know, that team member who is nineteen, twenty years old, very far removed from and never experienced legalized slavery, right? Or never experienced some of the things that came after, like Jim Crow and whatever else. Or even the civil rights era. It still shows up intergenerationally in some of the language that we use and relate ourselves to capitalism. And I think it was more so a commentary on that. And also, I think just how important it is for us to even be having this conversation about shifting our relationship to capitalism to a place of empowerment, rather than from a place of structural or systemic oppression. Wow. How do you see our position as black people in capitalism today and with this current administration doing what they're doing. Do you think our position in capitalism will be different ten years from now? That's a big question. I mean, I think first and foremost, what this administration is showing us is that the cavalry is not coming. We cannot expect anyone to externally come and support us. Cannot expect a hand to prop us up in any which kind of way. What we know for sure is that it's up to us to create the solutions that we need, and also to create the kind of outcomes that we want to see in five, ten, however many years in the future. And so I think that, you know, when we talk about Pan-Africanism, it is as urgent now as it was in its creation. and I think that some of some things that are working in our favor is that knowledge around capitalism, the tools of capitalism, you know, investing of all different sorts, has become more democratized now than ever before. And so just access to resources are more available. I think. Also, granted, there are very real challenges both now and pending when it comes to AI, but technology in general, you can see how there's just more avenues to acquire wealth as a black person than there have been in the past. And so there are things that are working that we can really capitalize on, you know, but it's really about that communal element to do it from whatever position that we sit in, because some might say, oh, well, I'm an entrepreneur. Some might say, like, I don't own a business, but I'm certainly a consumer, you know, I purchase products or I purchase different things. And so how can I relate to how I share my wallet and vote every day with the money that I have and who I spend that with. You can also think about collective investing, and so there's so many different ways to use the tools of capitalism to work for us, on us to make it work. Because, again, the sociopolitical landscape and climate is it's not in our favor. And we see that more honest than ever. And so I think that's really the way forward. It's really going to be about how we can lock arms. And I think so much of why I wrote this book is to advance the conversation and really to catalyze action that's going to be in service of the collective. I think for so long we've had this debate about anti-capitalism, capitalism, socialism, whatever it is. Right. But we've got to move on, you know, we've got to move on. And so that's really where my headspace is at. And the call to action is. What is that action collectively? You kind of drove me right into my next question. I was actually writing it down, you know, Carter G. Woodson says in Mis-education Negro, he says we had to use segregation to beat segregation. It was our own lawyers, our own people who were in segregated schools, such as HBCUs, who would later come down and burn brown to the ground. I also think that we have to use capitalism to beat capitalism. capitalism only can be beat by people. It's a way of thought. And how are we going to do things if we really want to move towards a more communal, society than we have to first master this type of society? Or as in the Bible, how can you take a strong man's house? You must first go in. You must destroy the strong man before you do his house. a parton in the book on page one eighteen, it says capitalism is a dirty game that so many of us don't want to play. But truth be told, we're all playing whether we want to or not. So the question becomes, can you get dirty without being dirty? If it means using the tools of capitalism to create new ones out of it, what tools are you talking about creating? What are those new tools that we should be able to create out of capitalism that we can use to be communal? Yeah, yeah. And I would say arguably sometimes they're not even new. These tools, it's just about the process of, again, what we know capitalism to be about private ownership and profitability and how you deploy, the resources within that framework in service of social good. I'll give you one example that I love as a case study to think about the tools of capitalism used in a different way. one of the case studies that I write about in the book is, the story of Wemimo Abbey, who's one of the co-founders of Esusu. The work that they do at Isuzu is all around creating financial visibility for the country's most financially invisible people. What is financial invisibility? It's really around folks who don't have a credit history. Credit is a tool of capitalism, especially in an American context. You need credit in order to build wealth. By and large, in this country. And so what they've done is recognize that the majority of black and brown folks in this country are renters. They don't own their homes. But they did say, if you can pay your rent on time, that should translate into credit worthiness, right? And so now what they've been able to do is create rent reportings that get sent to credit bureaus. And so these folks who are renting, who didn't have any kind of credit history before, which meant that they also didn't have access to capital because they would get denied for a home loan or an auto loan, etc.. Now we're building credit, which is translating to financial visibility, which is unlocked millions of dollars in all different forms of loans or access to capital to actually get on that journey of building wealth. So within four years of starting that business in twenty eighteen, they became a unicorn business, which means that they were valued at a billion dollars or more. That's one of a handful of black owned businesses to achieve unicorn status. And now, even recently, they just had a series C fund and raised another, I want to say half a billion dollars. And so you see how their focus on enhancing the lives of people, building something that really nurtures social good and using the tools of capitalism to do it. We know that this country is predicated on credit. It runs on credit. How can we give that tool and empower others with it in order to get on that journey of intergenerational wealth building? And that's one example of how you do it. I'll give you another tool that's more around, kind of collective economics. And this one actually speaks to a old school, traditional money pooling practice that you'll see across the African diaspora on the African continent and even in, Asia, as well as I've learned from people and talking about this soucieux, which are, again, an old school money pooling practice, the idea being you get a group of friends together or family members, and on a monthly basis, people are putting funds cash into that pool. And each month there's a rotation where, let's say it's my month. I get all of the funds that were pulled in next month, the next person get those funds that were pulled in. That gives you an influx of cash, right, to then pursue whatever endeavors that you might not have been able to because you went to the bank and they denied you that home loan. You know, you went to the bank to get that business loan. They're saying no, right? We know the story about a lack of access to capital within our community when we're talking about financial institutions, and this is something it's not a new tool. It's a tool that we've been using, but it's an opportunity for us to reengage with some of these tools to create the solutions that we need. Because, again, we know that the solutions aren't going to be handed to us. And so these are just some examples of that. One more example a tool is really around organizing and boycotts. Economic boycotts. Boycotts are extremely powerful and can be if you have unified objectives, if people are willing to sacrifice in service of the greater good. Right. Because as I mentioned before, how we share our wallet with institutions is an indication of what we are voting for and what our values are. People often feel most agentic most powerful when they're voting, and that doesn't happen every day. Or most people will think that. But the reality is we vote multiple times a day with our wallet. And so if we do that in a collective, organized manner, you start to see how institutions then start to respond to that, because it's not just about, shareholder value, but also stakeholders. And it matters where you put your dollars or where you withhold your dollars. And people respond to that because it is a power position. And so these are just some examples of whether you're an entrepreneur or someone who's, you know, patronizing different institutions or looking to build capital with community to invest it or build wealth. The tools are there. But you'll see the common denominator is really around community and social good at the end of the day. No, I you know, and for those that are listening, make sure you are going to your rent. If you are renting, go find out if they're putting that on your credit. I first I've heard of that, that you could get your rental history, put on your credit. And I think that would be a great way to break into things. again, I just want to do a quick book plug. Everyone we are talking to, the one and only Doctor Rachel and her book Black Capitalist. it is the blueprint for what is possible. Y'all gotta get your copy. Has a lot of great, great things in there. And, like. And I tell you, I've, I've done that, the thing before where everyone for a calendar year, we're going to everyone's going to put two hundred dollars in, and then everyone waits another month. And, you know, I wonder, one of the things I was always scared of is, what about when it comes to my month that people are having hard time and they can't put money in, but you know, you have to have people that understand, how how to do that. the concept of I like because and I'm just going to pull it out of the middle of a sentence, but says black people are responsible for lifting as they climb the economic ladder. We you know, I remember when Barack Obama first got elected, I remember one of the preachers was saying, you know, he had this whole thing about how the black man ain't gotta get back, man, you know, because black people always talk about, we gotta get back. We're the only ones to say we gotta get back and things like that. So this, this idea of people forgetting about, you know, lifting as we climb or that ultra individualism. I don't need to worry about no one else. It's all about me. I think that is one of the evil parts of capitalism. And so and so so I like what you're saying. You're talking about. We have to have a mindset change in capitalism and say, basically, the capital I get is going to be for a greater good trying to teach Everybody. Yeah. What what lessons do you think from working in those corporate those those those powerhouse companies like Goldman Sachs? What lessons did you see that or mindset did you see that people use that are totally different that we don't use as a black community? Mhm. Great question. Might be some hot takes in here. I mean I think a big one is and I say this gently, you know, but we have to help each other more. You know I think so often you know the gatekeeping or the crabs in a barrel mentality, which kind of speaks to what you're saying around like that individualism or you're feeling like there's finite resources. So you got to look out for yourself, you know. And the reality is, like sometimes we do that work of being generous and, you know, wanting to support. And sometimes we get burned. That's real like that's happened. And sometimes it kind of dissuades us from staying in that kind of posture. But when I've looked at other communities and the way that they open doors and pipelines for each other, I think it really is a reminder that we can do that with each other, and we should do that with each other, because, again, we will not win, you know, unless we have that communal mindset. And so that crabs in a barrel mentality is something that I really think that we have to get as far away from as possible. Another thing is when it comes to even, for example, entrepreneurship, I often think about this. It shouldn't be so hard. And when I say that, I mean I'll talk to entrepreneurs who are doing everything from scratch. And when I look at other communities, it's like folks who have gone down the path, you know, who have experienced it, and they'll mentor others that come after them, or just pave the way to make it easier. There's no reason why we can't be doing that with each other, you know? It shouldn't be that I'm starting from scratch for the next person is too. When there are examples of folks who have done it before and maybe they didn't get it perfect, but at least there's learnings that we can derive to make it easier for us, you know. And so again, that just that spirit of generosity and working together, I think we've seen it in other contexts, other communities. And I would just encourage us to as much as we can do more of that. because again, we're only going to win if we have that communal orientation. One of the books that came to mind when I was thinking about black capitalism was, Isabel Wilkerson's caste. And the concept of working outside of your caste can bring you stress, anxiety, fear. And when black people are working in corporate America, we're more exposed to those microaggressions. there's a certain type of racism that black people are exposed to. And you have a saying here, and I would like for you to dive into that saying, on page one hundred forty seven, you have the words, there's a tax on being a capitalist when you're black. What does that mean? What is that tax? Yeah, it's kind of what you spoke to before in the case of Robert Smith. Right. Where people are coming down on him and questioning and critiquing him. to be a black person, strategically participating in capitalism is a very different thing, as you mentioned, in recalling or, you know, referencing the book than it is to be a white person. And that has everything to do with the fact that within a white supremacist structure, the notion of being black and wealthy is unfamiliar to people and the pursuit of that. People will question you for why it is that you even want to aspire to anything greater or anything more. I'll give you one personal example. I was talking with a, like a magazine, company. And they had they were interested in featuring an essay of mine, and they were specifically interested in me writing an essay about how it is that I navigated out of poverty. They wanted me to write an article about why it is that, it was important for me to navigate out of poverty and kind of what's been the toll in, you know, working on Wall Street and being in these spaces where I experience microaggressions and racism. Like, why do I continue to do that? And I respectfully declined the offer to write that essay because inherent in that was the assumption that I should not want to have an experience or be in a better position of thriving than the one that I was born into. And it reflected everything about their own assumptions, underpinned by a kind of white supremacist mindset as to what I was deserving of. And I think we see that when you're talking about a black capitalist, it's like, well, how? I'll give you another example. Just this weekend, I was, at a black owned art gallery in Newark, new Jersey, and the owner was telling me about how she's faced, you know, some criticism, from folks because people have said black people have said to her like, oh, well, why why an art gallery that's like a white people thing in the neighborhood. Why would you have that? You know, and just these questions of how is it in our belief set that we can think that that having a black owned art gallery in our neighborhood is a white people thing, you know, and it just makes all of these assumptions from black folks, white folks, whoever, about what it is black people are deserving of. And that's some of the the critiques, the challenges, the trade offs. Because the more and more you dig into that practice of black capitalism, the more and more sometimes you'll experience people trying to place limitations on what black life should look like, what black folks should access, the kind of thriving they should be afforded. You know? And so I think those are some of the features that start to show up within a black capitalist framework. So you're on a train and the lessons being taught and this, this, this man is with his children. And the thought of money matters. But money only matters. Or money doesn't matter to those that have money. Can you explain that concept? Because, you know, I mean, I'm in the I'm in the tax bracket where money still matters. So so what type of tax bracket are to be in where money is not mattering anymore? Yeah. And I think that again, it speaks to and is a commentary on how. Especially when you think about it relationally blackness, whiteness in relation to a capitalist system, especially notions of white wealth, it's almost assumed, prematurely assumed that, oh, you know, money is just this thing that we can get access to. It's part of that kind of white privilege that, oh, there's opportunities, there's privilege. There's ways in which we can access the things that we need without, you know, incredible striving or hustling or struggle to achieve it, but it's a very different experience for the majority of black people in this country. You know, where it's like money absolutely matters, and it's only the folks who have access to it or don't have to work so hard to attain it that they'll tell you otherwise. And we can't fall into that mess because that's just not the reality of things. And so that's a hard lesson. But also, again, just shows how black participation in capitalism is very different than white participation capitalism. Thank you. My final question is if you had to retitle the book, what would the title be? Oh gosh. Well, I'll tell you what other people have asked me to retitle it. you know, because this book has been very polarizing, it generates a lot of visceral reactions, especially for folks who judge books by their cover. They'll read Black Capitalist and be like, oh, I don't know what that's going to be about. And some you know and and it's fair. It's fair. I was intentional about the title because I liked how it makes us reckon with reality. It makes us confront the contradictions that we navigate every day. Right. And it's only in that honesty are we going to start to get real about what actions that we can take instead of being, you know, in this kind of utopic or arguably delusional state about our relationship to the economic system. But some folks have said, oh, well, if you had titled it Black Socialists, that might have been an easier pill to swallow. And I my response is always, well, we're not living in socialism, you know? And so for me, it's really about pragmatically, how do we account for the system that we inherited? How do we have a strategy and intention that allows us to, as I've been saying, use the tools to create new outputs. That gets us to a better position. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that capitalism is good. Absolutely not. We know the history of it. We know all of the harms that it creates. We also know that we're in this in-between space. We're trying to get to a place where we're in a more equitable system for all of us. We're not there yet. So how do we behave and what do we believe in in this in-between space as we're getting closer to that something else? Black capitalism, in my opinion, is a solution for this in-between space. I want to call it I would call it the communal capitalist. Oh, I like that. I like that too, because I got out of it. I see our doctor Langston's back. Thank you so much for the wonderful, wonderful conversation. I enjoyed it. Just like I enjoy your book. And it is so very great to meet you. Thank you. Likewise. Likewise. So I want to thank all the guests for joining us today. Those who joined live. Lloyd, Thank you for stepping in as guest host. Doctor Laryea, thank you for joining us today as the author. I have one quick question because I know you gotta go real quick, okay. I always end like this because we have origins as a book club. If you had one more section or, chapter in a book that you would have added, what would that have been? I love that question. So I'm actually working on book two right now. And so book two is what otherwise would have been that additional section. and I'll share that the tentative title for the book is From Skin Folk to Kinfolk When Race Isn't enough, and it's all about how we connect to blackness because of a shared historical struggle and a present, enduring historical struggle. But what kind of future does a black identity connect us to? And more importantly, when you think about racial solidarity, what is the use value, the enduring use value of a shared black identity, and how does it relate to any kind of material difference in service of our kind of economic liberation? And so the questions are really around when we look at a shared black identity, there are some ethnic economic divisions that are operating under the surface of that. That's making notions of racial and economic solidarity difficult to achieve. The questions that I'm after are, how do we really think about unification, despite the proliferation of continued division within a shared black identity? And how do, again, how do we get closer to collective black thriving despite that? And so that's that's the section which we'll now get blown up into a book. And, hopefully we'll see the light of day someday soon. We need to bring that book. I'm excited about that. Awesome. So, to the audience, Doctor Laryea has to leave. but thank you for joining us. I would ask that, Lloyd, even you stay for a little bit. And those of you who are joining us, for the conversation live that you will say so I can talk about what's happening next with entrepreneurial appetite. Doctor Laryea, thank you for joining us. We hope to get you here for the San Antonio, Book Festival. So yes, I would love that. And if and I know, since I'm having a hop, if people have questions, I'm happy to share my email and just make myself accessible to folks as well. That's no problem. Thank you. Of course. Thanks so much for the time. Yep. So real quick, those of you in the audience, I want to I want to do a few things before we go, because I know Doctor Laryea had to jump a little early. The first thing I want to do is I want to acknowledge tie this question in the chat and tie. just so you know, before today's recording, Lloyd and I reached out to Doctor Laryea to encourage her to, to encourage her to submit for the San Antonio Book Festival. And so if she gets accepted and she comes, that might be a good opportunity for you to, go meet her in person and ask for the question. Ask her the question that you typed in the chat. But then also we'll see if we can do one of the gatherings that we've done at my house with her as well. One thing I'm typing in the chat here is, if you want to be a continued supporter of entrepreneurial appetite, the way to do that is through our Patreon website. And so for five dollars a month, you get access to the live discussions. But also, there are folks who've gotten invitations to our in-person conversations with authors and entrepreneurs. So I'll put that in the chat here Also. So, you know, Entrepreneurial Appetite is a podcast. And so, the conversation Doctor Laryea is going to be basically rebroadcast on, on wherever you can listen to podcasts. But we've also had a number of other exciting conversations, including one with Cliff Goins who wrote, Mining Minding the Wealth Gap, which is another conversation that, Lloyd facilitated here on this platform as well. So add the link to the podcast in the chat. what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask Lloyd. Lloyd if while we talk about what's happening next on Entrepreneurial Appetite, could you go on our Google chat and find Doctor Laryea email address and then type it in the chat while I talk about what's happening next? That way we can get to, my city connected question in the chat. Okay, so those of you who are still with us, bear with me as I go through some logistics and talk about what we may have coming up here in the future. So, number one, entrepreneur appetite, like I said, is a series of events dedicated to building community, promoting intellectualism and supporting black businesses. And I have another podcast called The African Americans in Store in Sports Podcast, where we talk about everything about African Americans in sport. And so that's really developed out of my work as a scholar doing research on the African American experience in sports. So you all are free to check that out as well. Also want to make you all aware, those of you who join us today, those of you who are patron supporters of entrepreneurial appetite, ten percent of everything that comes in to support the podcast goes to support an endowment that I started at my alma mater, my HBCU, North Carolina NC State University. And that endowment is called the from A.A to PhD endowed Endowed Scholarship to support folks in the College of Education who are getting master's degrees in PhDs peaks in education, because that's so central to my journey as a scholar and a professional. Also, I have reached out to Trey Baker, who is author of In the Black twenty fifty. He is a resident of Tulsa, Oklahoma, and has been a large part of their efforts to rebuild Black Wall Street, in the tech industry and has worked as an investor in start up businesses and really has some interesting ideas about how we get towards, reparations and economic solidarity among each other. And so, I will put it out there once we establish an actual date and time to do that live recording, I'll make sure that I invite everyone who registered today to be a part of that conversation. and so we look forward to seeing you all here in the future. Lloyd, do you have any comments or anything else that you would like to share about your platform before we go? Well, again, black cabinet education, you can find me on every single, social media where from YouTube to IG to TikTok, everything is under black cabinet education. I also put the email in the chat, for us. And again, thank you so much for allowing us to have this opportunity to share space with you and of course, with Doctor Rachel. All right. So as things progress, if, like I said, if Doctor Laryea gets accepted into the San Antonio Book Festival, I will try to let all of you all know whether or not she'll be here so you all can have a follow up conversation with her. Then that takes place in April. And then, like I said, for folks who join the Patreon, not everybody will be, invited to that conversation because we try to be very intentional about who comes. But we do prioritize people who sign up for the Patreon to, maybe come to something a little bit more intimate in conversation with her if that should happen. No guarantees. Again, thank you all for joining us. Thank you for your support and you all have a good evening.